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The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation

One of the least attractive aspects of modern social justice activism is the criticism of actions as cultural appropriation. The basic idea is that the group or nationality or ethnicity who developed some practice should be the ones who are allowed to practice it. People outside of that group are not allowed to engage in the practice. When stated in this way, the idea seems absurd. It seems to suggest that white westerners cannot practice Yoga because it was developed in India. This Wikipedia article develops the idea in a more nuanced way, but the attempts at nuance do not eliminate the basic problems.

There is so much wrong with the idea that it is hard to know where to start. One obvious problem is that it is focused on group rights. Somehow a group is said to own a practice, even if the members of that group had no participation in its development. That people from India developed Yoga does not mean that people from that area today have any special claim to it. Another problem is that the people who developed the practice somehow have a claim to exclusively exercise it. But that is not true. If a person develops a practice, that person does not get an exclusive right to practice it.

Sure, it is possible that some of the things that are criticized as cultural appropriation are problematic. But it is not because it involves cultural appropriation. For example, if someone dressed up as a Hasidic Jew, with the various distinctive clothes and religious items, and did so in a way that indicated they were looking down on and making fun of those Jews, then that would be problematic. But not because they were culturally appropriating anything. The reason it would be problematic is that they would be making fun of a group. The cultural appropriation is irrelevant.

But the worst aspect of cultural appropriation is that it is inconsistent with the cultural development and enrichment that a free society promotes. In a free society, people from different cultures bring their practices to the wider society and they are followed by others in that society, making possible a richer and improved culture. To take just one example, consider the area of ballroom and Latin dancing. If one engages in this practice, one dances a variety of dances, including the Foxtrot, Tango, Waltz, Viennese Waltz, Salsa, Rumba, and many others. These dances originated in many different cultures, but no one regards dancing those various dances to be problematic. Instead, the combination of these dances from different cultures evidences “the creative powers of free civilizations”—and makes for a dance practice that exceeds what any one of these cultures could produce on their own. It is true that the people who engage in these dances may modify aspects of the dance practices to depart from the original form, but they do so to develop the form and to fit it into new circumstances. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, these dances, like other cultural practices, developed over time to become what they are.

In the end, the criticisms about cultural appropriation turn out to be inconsistent with essential aspects of the greatness of a free society. These criticisms are an attempt to prevent people from the generally beneficial process of modifying and mixing cultural practices, all in the name of group rights.

Reader Discussion

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on February 26, 2019 at 10:56:26 am

No, No, No. Let us have more restrictions on cultural appropriation.

Nobody but my family may eat Pizza as my family brought it over to the USA in the 19th century.

Let us permit only those of European lineage to engage in science and the scientific method as it was they who developed it.

No one but Mercedes may produce automobiles as they developed it. thus, no automobiles in say such places as the Indian subcontinent, Africa, Asia, NYC (now that amazon is gone, they probably won;t need it anyway).

And NO Penicillin for YOU. You did not invent it.

What sheer and utter lunacy / idiocy.

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Guttenburgs Press and Brewery
on February 26, 2019 at 12:58:17 pm

Poor Don Novello!

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Len Romanick
on February 26, 2019 at 13:18:37 pm

Have you looked at it from a Person of Color's perspective? (Definitely read #2)
https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/05/defending-cultural-appropriation/

Also, your examples don't hold water. The dances celebrate culture, they don't make light of people's experiences in those cultures. The example of the Hasidic Jewish person is different. It would be cultural appropriation if the person dressed in Hasidic clothes (what does a Hasidic Jew dress like? Just a yarmulke? Is peyot required?) was perpetuating stereotypes about Jewish people.

Here's another example. Wearing dreadlocks as a white person is cultural appropriation when POC are facing backlash for wearing them. (Primary school kids! High school kids!) In American culture Black hair has always been considered unkempt and unprofessional. If you as a white person wear dreads without acknowledging the fact that POC have experienced discrimination for this very thing, you are engaging in cultural appropriation.

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Just Another Opinion
on February 26, 2019 at 14:27:01 pm

I have not been able to wrap my brain around cultural appropriation.

1. Rappaport correctly notes that people object to being ridiculed—and when a member of a dominant group depicts a member of a subordinate group, it’s easy for the subordinate person to feel belittled. (Imagine your boss walking around the office doing an impersonation of you. Even if the impersonation was done lovingly, you’d feel kinda weird about it.) So I feel some sympathy for this point of view.

2. Also, people may feel resentment about unjust enrichment. “We’re subordinate, and all these dominant folks are reaping the benefits of our culture! They already have so much; must they appropriate our stuff as well?” I can imagine feeling this way. After all, humans are social animals, and we care about our status relative to others. Ape care about their status, too; it’s natural. Still, to me, this falls into the category of free speech: Some things may seem hurtful, but they can’t be the kinds of things we expect social norms to forbid; I can see no standard to enforce. So, while I may empathize with feelings of status-consciousness, and I don’t want to fault people for HAVING these feelings, neither do I want to lionize those feelings. Rather, these seem like the kinds of feelings we transcend as part of living in the company of others.

3. Then there are people earnestly trying to show solidarity with members of subordinated groups, and they think that expressing objections to cultural appropriation would be a way to do this. Noble intentions, perhaps, but expended in an effort to enforce an unarticulable standard.

Consider The Exorcist: True, by 1973, Catholics were not a heavily subordinated group, even if they hadn’t quite joined the WASP club. Then along comes a movie parading Catholic imagery, music, and theology for popular amusement. No, I don’t understand the film to be an attempt to ridicule or trivialize Catholicism—but yeah, I could imagine that a lot of Catholics might have drawn the opposite conclusion. And yes, I DO understand the movie as appropriating Catholicism for secular, commercial purposes (even though the author had a Catholic upbringing). The fact that the movie depicted priests as heroes, and that the film achieved high status as art, may have tamped down Catholic objections to this appropriation. At least, I couldn’t find any referenced to Catholic objections. Not sure what conclusions to draw from that.

So, why should I not wear my hair in dreadlocks? I read “5 Things You Don’t Realize When You Defend Cultural Appropriation,” and I commend the author for the open, welcoming tone. But I can’t say that I find the discussion persuasive. As far as I can tell, the reason I shouldn’t wear dreadlocks is because subordinated groups have suffered. I don’t dispute it. But if I refrain from wearing my hair in dreadlocks, will that somehow relieve subordinated groups of their suffering? If not, then I'm still struggling to see the relevance of this argument.

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nobody.really
on February 26, 2019 at 14:38:39 pm

Rappaport hits the nail on the head, and in one fell stroke drives it in about as far as it can go without straying into other subjects. I'm thinking of the absurdity of the concept of "cultural appropriation" as a way of controlling what other people do.

One of the most popular "new" cultural activities is re-enactment and living history performing arts as a way of preserving something specific in out cultural heritage. Colonial Williamsburg, Mount Vernon and other places are beloved institutions because tourists can visit and take a little trip back in time, meet actors playing the roles of our famous and not-so-famous forebears, and learn about the way people lived and thought back then. I've seen photographs of Asian-Americans dressed as 18th Century American Patriots. Although I am not sure if there were Japanese in America then, this does not bother me one bit. I like it because American Liberty is for everybody who loves Liberty and I love the process of learning about various cultures, present and past. But, if cultural appropriation is going to be a crime, then newcomers to America will not be allowed to participate in living-history theater or enjoy making our traditional Thanksgiving Dinner.

It would mean that I, as a child, would not have been allowed to dress up in my Indian costume after hearing the poem, "The Song of Hiawatha". One of my favorite TV shows was "Brave Eagle", he was wise, good and a strong warrior, a real hero. I wanted to go back in time and live in a teepee on the prairie with the Indians. When we drove through Indioan country on an extended car trip when I was ten years old, my parents bought me a Kachina Doll. It was a treasured possession. But, if it became a crime for a European-American whose ancestors came over on the Mayflower and fought in the War for Independence to wear an Indian costume as a child, wouldn't it be a crime for her to play with a Kachina Doll?

If cultural appropriation became a crime, then would it mean that only Jews could follow the Ten Commandments of God and light Hanukkah candles, and only Christians could follow the Golden Rule and sing Christmas carols? Would it mean that anybody who is not Irish-American could not march in a St. Patrick's Day Parade or sing "Danny Boy" or drink Guiness Stout? Would it mean that I would not be able to go to a Japanese restaurant, drink hot sake and eat sushi? Would it mean I could not make tamales or grow Jalapeno chiles? Would it mean I could not listen to Hawaiian music, dance the hula or eat roast pig? Would it mean I could not eat my favorite medicinal Indian curry meal called Chicken Marsala? Would it mean I could not go to a Cajun restaurant or listen to Cajun music?

Would it mean that my cultural diversity allowances would be dictated by my DNA? I would be limited to enjoying Viking, English, Irish, Scots-Irish, Welsh and Germanic cultures and not allowed to go to Native American pow-wows, Italian Festivals, Olvera Street, Mardi Gras, a Black History Month parade, A Chinese Lunar New Year festival, and so on. Would it mean I could not live in a Spanish style house because my ancestors built mud-thatch huts to live in and my native American friends would have to live in grass houses, and our Australian-Aborigine friends would have to cook all meals over an open fire even if they were not having a barbecue, and only our Spanish-American friends could host a barbecue?

Irish-Americans have a custom that I think is wonderful. On St. Patrick's Day, they want everyone to join in their fun and enjoy Irish culture--Guiness, corned beef and cabbage, dancing to fiddle music, and singing irish folk songs with live accompaniment by musicians who come from Ireland. They say, "On St. Paddy's Day, everyone is a little bit Irish!" Well, that is how I feel about everybody else cultural heritage.

There is another custom that seems to be dying out, and that is the custom of Folk Dance societies. These are people whose ancestors come from all over, and they dance the folk-dances of their ancestors together. In my lifetime I've danced Mexican folk-dances, Flamenco, American square dances, Puerto Rican-style disco, Hawaiian hula, Arabian belly dance, Japanese folk dances, American Vaudeville tap dances, Classical Ballet (French), Native American, Greek, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Russian, Yugoslavian, and more. It was all fun, and a great way to meet new people. Loved all the music. Made me happy.

I say, let us share the best of everybody's cultural heritage, for in America we share the same love of Liberty that brought us all here. John Adams defined American Liberty as "a power to do as we would be done by" -- which means that we may do as we wish as long as we cause no harm to others. For this to work, we need to understand about boundaries. Common Sense, Common Decency and Common Courtesy are the rules we would be wise to follow. Common Sense tells us to set proper social boundaries, Common Decency tells us what they are, and Common Courtesy says how to show respect to other people by recognizing their boundaries.

Proper etiquette shows how these customs are applied in polite company. In this way, we will always endeavor to behave in such a way as not to cause offense. Judith Martin's "Miss Manner's Guide to Excrutiatingly Correct Behavior" is the best etiquette book I've ever read, and the funnist. Amazingly, she actually models the correct behavior she talks about so you kind of absorb what you never learned when you were young.

The interesting thing about the Golden Rule is that it is a kind of universal code of behavior. All the ancient religions and philosophies that are with us today have some form of the this Code in their traditions. That means it probably goes back to the days when the first humans, individuals and small bands of hunter-gatherers, walked out of the Rift Valley to make a new life for themselves somewhere else.

We are no longer hunter-gatherers who have to be suspicious of strangers to protect their hunting grounds and foraging territories. We are members of a society whose boundaries are national and whose influence dominates modern civilization around the world. We are strong because people come here from all over the world so they can live in the Land of Liberty. Our diversity is the bonus we get for believing that all men are created equal, that everyone is equally accountable to the same law, that nobody is above the law, that we will resolve our differences peaceably, that the fundamental purpose of American government is to protect the Liberty of the People.

This means we must protect everyone's individual rights. Group Rights are not the same. Group Rights establish separate and unequal classes of Americans, meaning some groups benefit at the expense of other groups. We fought wars over these archaic ideas, and won them all. It would be a shame to give up what our forebears fought to hard to gain, a heritage of Liberty for all.

America is for people who are willing to respect other people's rights and dignity, not take them away.

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Karen Renfro
on February 26, 2019 at 15:13:27 pm

No, NOT wearing your hair in dreads won't HELP them, but wearing your hair in dreads without understanding the history and controversy behind them is what is harmful and disrespectful.

Having hurt feelings and being systematically oppressed for hundreds of years is not even comparable.

Why is cultural appropriation offensive to POC?* Because this whole "melting pot" enjoy each other's culture isn't the whole picture. Immigrants were forced to assimilate and were discriminated against if they did not do so. Many today still argue that you should have to learn English to be here. (So much for that melting pot.)

Africans colonized by Europeans and the slaves that were brought to America were stripped of their culture. They were given Anglicized names and weren't allowed to practice their traditions and religion. Taking on aspects of their culture now is rubbing salt in a very deep wound.

You don't have to like it, you don't have to live it. You don't even have to understand it. But don't wax poetic about how people who are STILL discriminated against are getting their feelings hurt.

*I am white. I am not speaking for POC, but I am sharing what I have learned.

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Just Another Opinion
on February 26, 2019 at 15:20:42 pm

Nobody:

spot -on!

" If not, then I’m still struggling to see the relevance of this argument."

That is because it is about POWER and nothing more. The power to silence and / or shame others, those others are or were presumably the oppressors of your distant ancestors.

Yet, let us remember that there is not a single ethnic or racial group that at one time or another in the past did not experience the "boot" of oppression and tyranny. Am I expected to be resentful of those WASPS who a century and a half ago denigrated my poorly educated Sicilian serf grandfather upon his arrival to these shores? Hey, NO PIZZA for you and don't you dare try to appropriate my 10 hours pasta sauce. It is for Sicilians ONLY!

BTW: Being a person of true LATIN descent, I must take issue with those people from Central America *appropriating* the term "Latino." Only Romans and their LATIN speaking related brethren can make such a claim. And anyway, why would anyway want to *appropriate* a term that signifies that you were once subject to the tyranny of a once Imperial power - ROME and it's Latin language.

Do you see how ridiculous this all is.

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gabe
on February 26, 2019 at 15:46:26 pm

I do not even know where to begin.

1. Nobody is asking for cultural appropriation to be a crime. They're asking for empathy.

2. No. You should not dress up like a Native American. While you are enjoying your Thanksgiving, consider that aside from this cute but inaccurate story, the settlers engaged in genocide of the Indigenous people of North America.

3. Cultural appropriation is not the same as enjoying ethnic foods. Unless you're saying to a Black person "oh hey, I brought the watermelon and fried chicken to the party since I knew Black people like it."

4. Paragraphs 4 and 5 are inane. Or hyperbolic. I'm assuming the former.

5. "I say, let us share the best of everybody’s cultural heritage, for in America we share the same love of Liberty that brought us all here. John Adams defined American Liberty as “a power to do as we would be done by” — which means that we may do as we wish as long as we cause no harm to others."

Liberty is awesome. But it's not applied fairly in the United States (voter rights, mass incarceration, medical treatment, schooling, I can go on). The Golden Rule doesn't seem to be applicable when whites get lenient sentences when a POC would have the book thrown at them. (Brock Turner, Penn State hazing death). Stop and frisk! If a white person wants to wear their jeans low around your behind, they would look silly, but not be considered a thug or dangerous.

6. "We are no longer hunter-gatherers who have to be suspicious of strangers to protect their hunting grounds and foraging territories." America's long history of forceful regime change in the Middle East and Central America belie that. And suspicious of strangers? Have you ever crossed the street or clutched your handbag because a Black man was walking down the street? Do you know how often POC get the police called on them because they look suspicious, even if they are in their own neighborhood? Or just at a Starbucks?

7. "We are strong because people come here from all over the world so they can live in the Land of Liberty. " Probably not a timely argument given the Muslim ban and the fear! of! strangers! coming across our southern border to escape poverty, starvation, and violence. And we don't have clean hands here. I refer you back to #6.

8. Group rights? POC do not have the same rights as whites. Or at least they are not allowed to exercise them to the same extent. So, darn tooting group rights! Protect the Blacks from systemic voter discrimination and mass incarceration. Protect Muslims from having their Mosques desecrated. Protect Jewish communities against antisemitism. Protect LGBTQ+ people from being fired for their sexual orientation. These issues cannot be fought one at a time and the rights involved affect MANY people.

Look, we are pretty far off topic at this point. To sum up, listen to people who have different experiences than you. They're allowed to take offense and to say why. Do you have to agree? Nope. But don't be purposely obtuse or call their beliefs "absurd" (Rappaport).

Erin go Bragh

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I Can't Even (fka Just Another Opinion)
on February 26, 2019 at 16:14:51 pm

No, NOT wearing your hair in dreads won’t HELP them, but wearing your hair in dreads without understanding the history and controversy behind them is what is harmful and disrespectful.

As far as you (or any random observer) knows, that white guy in dreadlocks has a PhD in history, and could talk rings around you regarding harm and disrespect. Likewise, that black baby in dreadlocks might be wholly ignorant of the topic. Thus, I find it hard to credit the premise, or the conclusion, of this argument.

[T]his whole “melting pot” enjoy each other’s culture isn’t the whole picture. Immigrants were forced to assimilate and were discriminated against if they did not do so. Many today still argue that you should have to learn English to be here. (So much for that melting pot.)

Africans colonized by Europeans and the slaves that were brought to America were stripped of their culture. They were given Anglicized names and weren’t allowed to practice their traditions and religion.

Yup, that's the "because they have suffered" argument I discussed above.

Taking on aspects of their culture now is rubbing salt in a very deep wound.

People have been wearing dreadlocks from time immemorial. Spartans wore dreadlocks. So who is to say which culture I'm taking on?

You don’t even have to understand it.

Fair enough. But this is a public policy blog. If you have rationale for your position, I'd be delighted to learn it. Thus far, I haven't.

But don’t wax poetic about how people who are STILL discriminated against are getting their feelings hurt.

I understand this to mean that your are motivated by sympathy/empathy/solidarity. I find that admirable--if not enlightening. I don't mean to denigrate your feelings on the subject. I do mean to say that, in the absence of some articulatable rationale, I don't credit your remarks as supported by anything other than your feelings.

The musical South Pacific addressed the issue of irrational prejudice in the song "You've Got to be Carefully Taught":

"You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the ______ your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!
"

In the original lyrics, the blank was filled in by the word "people." Today, I wonder if the blank should be filled in by "symbols." See, we can't count on the next generation to hate prejudice. So we need to teach them to hate the SYMBOLS of prejudice that we hate. Thus we fall all over ourselves attacking symbols, and tell ourselves that this is a way to attack prejudice.

Likewise, I'm reminded of the idea that we should avoid the phrase "rule of thumb" because it derived from the size of a branch that could be used for wife-beating. Of course, this story was inaccurate--but the feelings of aversion that people felt were genuine. Thus, careful writers may feel inclined to avoid the phrase REGARDLESS of the accuracy of the story. Certain "cultural appropriation" issues fall into the same category: I may not find the objections especially compelling, but where there's little burden--for example, by avoiding braiding my hair--I'm generally willing to go along.

Cultures are full of curious taboos. We've managed to shed many, so I guess it won't kill us to pick up a few replacements. But it does seem like a real mis-allocation of energy.

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nobody.really
on February 26, 2019 at 17:04:38 pm

Well argued, nobody.really.

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QET
on February 26, 2019 at 18:25:52 pm

Let me sum this up:

There is no constitutional right to NOT BE OFFENDED!
Certainly, it is uncivil to intentionally offend, to belittle, to denigrate -but- clearly there is no inherent right to exist in a safe space.

As nobody above asserts, it is also unclear as to who may have the cultural right to such things as dreadlocks, or for that matter gabe's claim for the "Romans" to pizza and spaghetti.
In short, genetically, WE ARE ALL MUTTS! the end result of a couple of millennia of interbreeding and cultural amalgamation.
who SHALL claim what based upon what genetic / cultural endowments is, at best unclear and at worst a ludicrous attempt at divining the meaning, relative value and impact of long lost behaviors, thinking and cultural inputs.

I question whether we even NEED to know such an unreachable answer.

And if gabe doesn't mind, send me your recipe for pasta sauce.

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Guttenburgs Press and Brewery
on February 26, 2019 at 19:55:18 pm

Well, well, well.

Well, well, well, well, well.

Folks, regardless of your views on the subject in question, the fact is that the only path out of whatever hell that people are ready to wallow in to nurse their grievances is not the one marked "Controlling Other People". It is the one marked "Taking Responsibility for Our Own Lives".

That means not keeping a record of everybody else's faults. This does not mean we don't hold one another accountable for our transgressions, but we do it in a civilized manner. Which simply means walking in the way of the Ten Commandments and living by the Golden Rule. The two go together.

What should be aiming at is living our lives as if we deserved to be free.

If we fail to measure up to this noble standard, it does not mean we should abandon our principles. It just means we have all the more reason to do the right thing even if it means keeping quiet to save our adversaries humiliation and embarrassment.

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Karen Renfro
on February 27, 2019 at 10:26:08 am

Insulting other people is just that. No need to fancy up boorish behavior by deeming it "cultural appropriation". Boorish is boorish. And hurt feelings give people no special rights of redress. Mom should have told you "sticks and stones" when kids teased you on the playground.

Rights inure to the individual. There are no "group rights"...

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OH Anarcho-Capitalist
on February 27, 2019 at 12:45:58 pm

Nobody:
I'm not sure what evidence you want me to show you. I gave you empirical evidence in the form of a primary source from a person with lived experience and I could find many more. Do you want book recommendations about how the past has a significant and detrimental effect on POC? Statistics about institutional privilege?

It comes down to White Entitlement, to be blunt. (Hold your eye rolling until the end, please.)

Let's separate the dreadlocks example from the underlying issue. If a POC says please don't use the N-word, whites often respond with "*big sigh* you don't have the right to be offended, it's just a word and I'll say it if I want. What's the big deal It’s the lyrics to the song I’m singing." The N-word is inextricably bound to the historic suffering and discrimination faced by Black people and the present covert, or overt, discrimination. Why do white people get to say what others can or cannot be offended by? Why are white people’s views about what is offensive more legitimate than POC’s views?

Furthermore, lot of cultural appropriation comes in the form of stereotypes and tropes which have the effect of reinforcing those stereotypes. For example, the Black Welfare Queen. Statistics don't back this up, but the stereotype still persists.

Guttenbergs:
1. "There is no constitutional right to NOT BE OFFENDED!"
Correct. So why are white people so offended by POC trying to explain cultural appropriation? Also, the majority (57%) of rapists are white men. You cool with me calling you a rapist? Mass shootings are committed by white men. I guess I can assume that a white man with a gun is a massacre waiting to happen.

2. "Certainly, it is uncivil to intentionally offend, to belittle, to denigrate -but- clearly there is no inherent right to exist in a safe space."
The social contract (Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau) is based on safety in exchange for giving up certain rights (except natural rights). Second, if we are to use Karen's argument, the Bible and the Ten Commandments extend that protection. Finally, the criminal and civil laws protect safety from products liability to medical malpractice to assault and battery. And rapey white men!

Do you mean “a place or environment in which a person or category of people can feel confident that they will not be exposed to discrimination, criticism, harassment, or any other emotional or physical harm?” It’s a place for people who have traditionally left out of civil discourse because they are LGBTQ, Black, or women. Why do people care if these places exist? Isn’t this an example of (white) people being offended over nonsense? It’s white entitlement. White people think that being shut out of somewhere or being told something is offensive is an attack on them. It’s not about you. (Not you specifically)

Karen:
1. [T]he fact is that the only path out of whatever hell that people are ready to wallow in to nurse their grievances is not the one marked “Controlling Other People”.
I don’t know what this means. Who is wallowing over grievances? Who is controlling other people?

2. “It is the one marked ‘Taking Responsibility for Our Own Lives.’”
Ah the bootstrapping argument. Pulling one’s self up by one’s boot straps assumes everyone has boots. And shoelaces.

3. I don’t know what you mean by “It just means we have all the more reason to do the right thing even if it means keeping quiet to save our adversaries humiliation and embarrassment.”
Who is the adversary? Why would they be humiliated and embarrassed?

I will leave you with this:
“It’s okay to accept that you might not understand why an element of someone’s culture is so important to them – but it’s not okay to invalidate that importance just because you don’t value it the same way.
By invalidating the importance of our cultures, you’re essentially saying, ‘My worldview says that your cultural traditions are trivial, so they should be meaningless to you, too.’
Believing that people of color are just oversensitive and silly for valuing what helps us survive means buying into the same myths that people use to justify colonization and racism – the ones that say people of color are “backwards” and uncivilized.”

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Just Another Opinion
on February 27, 2019 at 13:43:11 pm

This is just another fake issue promoted by the left to divide people. Absurdity is never an obstacle.

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Peter Aiello
on February 27, 2019 at 16:46:55 pm

1. There is a Twelve-Step Group called "Co-Dependents Anonymous" that is for those who on the one hand think that other people are the cause of all their problems, and on the other that it is their duty to control other people in an effort to solve them. A side-effect of this childish point of view is that they also tend to act as enablers to people who refuse to take responsibility for their problems, or to manipulate enablers into taking care of them in some way.

2. An indication that a boy has become a man is that he no longer blames other people for his problems or bullies others into submission to solve them, but instead is willing to take responsibility for his own situation. He admits when he has done wrong and makes amends whenever possible. He does not point his finger at others who don't.

3. Well, I have found that by being gracious towards those who have crossed the line when they know I could have made trouble for them gets better results than making a big issue of it in the public square. They know full well that I might not be so inclined if it happens again.

Well, you do not know me well enough to know what I think about other people's cultures, or the value of their heritage to society. But, you are wrong on every count. I am sorry that I did not make myself understood. I apologize again for all my shortcomings.

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Karen Renfro
on February 27, 2019 at 16:49:51 pm

Agree. Fake issues are meant to distract us from the real issues. This, apparently, is what makes the Public Forum go 'round.

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Karen Renfro
on February 27, 2019 at 17:46:53 pm

I’m not sure what evidence you want me to show you.

Evidence showing a causal relationship (“nexus,” in the language of discrimination law) between the policy you advocate and the harm you seek to avoid/benefit you seek to generate.

I previously cited the august authority South Pacific. Let me now cite The Music Man: A con man comes to River City, rallies the townfolk with the accurate observation that their kids are growing into teenagers and starting to act differently (kind of like teenagers), and then making the unsupported claim that this change has been triggered by the opening of a pool hall. The fact that the townfolk are so easily manipulated is played for laughs.

In this discussion, you make the accurate claim that people of color have suffered, and you then make the unsupported claim that this suffering is somehow related to whether white people wear dreadlocks (or whatever). And when we ask for elaboration, you go back to discussing how much people of color have suffered. That’s clearly an important idea—but not the idea that’s at issue.

So let me stipulate in somewhat greater detail: I stipulate that racism keeps people of color out of jobs and housing, and causes them to experience greater violence. Now, if we could, today, wave a magic wand and ban white people forever from wearing dreadlocks, how much of history would this erase? NONE. How many more jobs would people of color get? NONE. How many more houses would people of color get? NONE. How much violence would this reduce? NONE. (Indeed, to the extent that white people get their dreadlocks from black hair stylists, I expect this would reduce employment, but that’s getting pretty far into the weeds….)

Do you disagree with any of these conclusions? If not, then I hope you’d acknowledge that there is NO NEXUS between the suffering of people of color and whites wearing dreadlocks. All the compassion and sincerity in the world will not alter this fact. Instead, some people have chosen to regard white people in dreadlocks as a SYMBOL of oppression, and have persuaded themselves that attacking this symbol will somehow attack oppression.

I simply don’t buy it. Maybe my White Entitlement blinds me, but as far as I can tell, that’s not how symbols work. My Ford pick-up may be a symbol of the Ford Motor Company, but blowing up the car will not actually have any effect on the corporation (ok, except to slightly reduce the supply of used Fords, thereby slightly increasing the demand for a new vehicle).

Let’s separate the dreadlocks example from the underlying issue.

Cool. But then let’s talk about some other concrete behavior you object to.

Why do white people get to say what others can or cannot be offended by? Why are white people’s views about what is offensive more legitimate than POC’s views?

I wouldn’t conclude that white people agree on these matters; I surmise you and I don’t. Likewise, nor would I conclude that people of color agree.

That said, again, this is a public policy blog. If you would like to persuade people to adopt a given policy, this blog provides a platform for making the argument. Thus far, I understand to you argue that “People of color have suffered, so as a consolation, we should surrender our own judgments in favor of theirs (where ‘their judgment’ is reflected by the contents of a given web page).” And I have some sympathy for this perspective—but not a lot.

Instead, I generally believe in subsidiarity/federalism/autonomy, which argues that decisions should be made by those who have the most at stake. In 2000, 5-yr-old Elian Gonzalez and his mother attempted to flee Cuba to the US and the mother died in the attempt. Elian’s father in Cuba sought custody. Plenty of people regarded Elian’s plight as symbolic of the US’s struggle with Cuba and opposed the transfer. In contrast, I argued that the outcome should be driven by promoting the interest of the people most directly affected—the father and child—even at the expense of symbolism. And ultimately the courts concurred, reuniting the family.

Likewise, the majority of people who might profess a symbolic interest in my hair will never SEE my hair. They could only express an objection to the THOUGHT that I might wear dreadlocks. This interest—even if entirely sincere—pales in comparison to the interest that *I* have in my hair. To choose to make another person’s hairstyle a symbol of your oppression seems like a losing battle.

Look, I bet you and I know plenty of people who regard meat-eating as a form of cruelty to animals. Yet I continue to eat meat. And I can’t recall any vegetarian, not matter how sincere, expressing umbrage that I did not surrender my judgment in deference to theirs.

I regard the moral claims of vegetarians to be stronger than the claims of people who object to my dreadlocks. After all, unlike the symbolic harm of dreadlocks, my choice to eat meat is literally—causally—a matter of life and death. Would you disagree? And, if not, have you elected to defer to vegetarians’ preferences to how you eat?

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nobody.really
on February 27, 2019 at 17:51:12 pm

Just another opinion (aptly attributed):

No, what it is, I suspect, is a simple derivative from the refusal to recognize the validity of a time honored proscription against "Visiting the sins of the Fathers upon the sons."

Consider that someone such as I, having been born almost a century after Emancipation, and whose family did not arrive on these shores until a half century after that event can not properly be said to be responsible for the travails of now long dead people UNLESS we believe that the "sins" of the fathers ARE to be visited upon the sons.

And how do we accomplish this denial of the ancient proscription.
We coin the term "white privilege", cultural appropriation, even such idiocies as "gender hegemony", each of which is intended to impart both shame and fear upon the beneficiaries of said malevolent behaviors. Doubtless, such charges also provide cover for one's own inability or unwillingness to adhere to standards of conduct / behavior and comportment expected of all members of a polity. It is quite easy to highlight the shortcomings of others. May we also be so willing to highlight our own or are we to continually find that the "fault is not in ourselves, but in others." That would appear to be the logic behind so much of the SJW charges levied against the rest of the population. It also has the added benefit of affording "victim" status to those so claiming such disadvantages.

There is a line from a song by Jackson Browne. It goes something like this:

"Please don;t remind me of my failures. I - I - have not forgotten them"

Perhaps, those alleging "privilege, appropriation / hegemony / patriarchy would do well to REMEMBER their own.
furthermore, having not forgotten MY own, I need not have them repeatedly thrown in my face.

Lastly, here are gabe' two maxims:

1) Blacks (minorities) DO NO have a monopoly on suffering
NOR
2) Do whites have a monopoly on racism, bigotry or bias.

It has been my observation over these many decades that those characteristics are distributed fairly widely and evenly across the species.

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gabe
on February 27, 2019 at 17:59:25 pm

nobody:

Stop on by, I will cook up some awesome rib-eye (seasoned an extra 45 days). However, do be so kind as to not let your dreaded and dastardly dreadlocks dip into the juice of the steak. Now THAT would be offensive.

Seriously, very well said and argued.

BTW:

Did any of the readers happen upon a news item this past week coming from AOC's New York City where the Council is (or has) passing a law to prevent discrimination based upon hairstyles. It is claimed that dreadlocks are viewed negatively and causes severe reaction in prospective employers resulting in employment discrimination.
Knowing this, I would think that Just another Opinion would be singing your praises; rather than culturally appropriating something of "cultural" value, it may be said that your empathy for the afflicted is so strong that you would subject yourself to similar levels of discrimination.
How is that for support.

Anyway, if you like your steak MORE than medium rare, don;t bother to come. I am intent on appropriating the culinary habits of cavemen.

seeya

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gabe
on February 27, 2019 at 18:57:25 pm

As an aside, Just Another Opinion states:

[T]he majority (57%) of rapists are white men.

Don’t know where this statistic comes from, but is that number disproportionate? It’s a tricky question.

In the US, roughly 61.3 % of the population is White non-Hispanic/Latino; 76.9% is White including Hispanic/Latino. So, if race were not a factor, I’d expect Whites to commit 61.3% or 76.9% of all crimes, respectively.

However, some share of rapes are committed by people who do not identify as male. (For example, we occasionally hear about female teachers having sex with underage students.) Thus, I’d expect the share of rapes committed by white men to be somewhat less than 61.3% or 76.9%, even if race were irrelevant. Would the number of white rapists who do not identify as male suffice to drive the percentage of white male rapists down to 57%?

Moreover, Just Another Opinion does not talk about the racial breakdown of sexual assaults, but of sexual ASSALIANTS. Maybe white male rapists are disproportionately likely to commit multiple rapes? If so, then we’d expect to find the share of white male rapists to be lower. Alternatively, if white males were disproportionately likely to commit only one rape, then we’d expect to find more of them, driving up the percentage in the population.

Again, it’s a tricky question.

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nobody.really
on February 28, 2019 at 14:59:22 pm

Rappaport didn't seem to be advocating for policy. He thinks that the idea of cultural appropriation is absurd.

The policy I'm advocating is an individual principle, not a governmental one. Before making a judgment about [a topic, here cultural appropriation], learn about why it is important to POC (or whomever). I rue the day I chose dreadlocks as an example, but I will continue with hair analogies. Fulani braids (Cornrows). When Kim Kardashian wore them she got backlash for them. The problem was that people were calling them a bold new style (or something) when Blacks have been wearing them since 300 b.c., and on Blacks they are considered unprofessional and unkempt. Double standard.

Even if your ancestors weren't here during slavery, we white people benefit from the institutions that have systematically oppressed Blacks in favor of whites. (Redlining, GI Bill, FDR's WPA, criminal justice system, etc.) That is white privilege. And not because we get something extra; we don't have to face the harassment and discrimination that POC do.

I'm not going to go into the myth of Black Victimization or "Co-Dependents Anonymous."

My mother is a proselytizing vegan. She can turn any conversation into why we should be vegan. I love steak (medium rare).

The primary reason I waded into this is because I was thinking: why do you care? Why put down something that is important to a group of people? What harm are you experiencing because of cultural appropriation?

Despite efforts to change the system (Civil Rights Act, Voting Act), the playing field is not level yet. And slavery isn't that far in he past. (My neighbor's grandparents were slaves. Three generations ago.)

I'm a teacher (and recovering lawyer). I teach U.S. Government and Politics; Civil and Criminal Law; Constitutional Law (Bill of Rights); Global Context; and The African American Experience. Every day I see my students of color face discrimination. Every day I see them struggle to find their place in a world (and school) that treats them as less than. I am committed to using my white privilege to educate, be involved in my community, and support my beloved students.

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Just Another Opinion
on February 28, 2019 at 15:06:06 pm

Oh. Here's where I got the stat. https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence.

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Just Another Opinion
on February 28, 2019 at 15:19:53 pm

Gabe, I agree with your two maxims. Well-said. Thank you for saying so. Regardless of race, color or creed, we are all flawed human beings.

But, regarding the business about "visiting the sins of the fathers on the children". It comes from the Ten Commandments of God. I used to interpret this as an arbitrary action of God's, entirely unrelated to anything but His whims. Actually, unlike pagan deities, God is not in the business of exercising whims. However, when I was studying the Founding Fathers' views of God and Liberty I came across the works of two early 18th Century British Radical Whig writers, John Trenchard and Thomas Gordon, both members of Parliament, who are famous for their "Cato's Letters".

Well, not so well-known are their essays in "The Independent Whig", which is where I found the following:

"The Decalogue, or the Law of the Ten Commandments, given by God Himself from Mt. Sinai with great Glory and astonishing Circumstances, were little else than the Laws of Nature reduced into Tables and expressed in words of God's own chusing."

Trenchard and Gordon are considered the fathers of modern English Libertarian thought. And here they were talking about biblical matters. I started thinking about the meaning of the commandments. Finally, it came to me that there they are about Cause and Effect, both to individuals and to society. I could see that if I obey them, your rights are safe. If you obey them, then my rights are safe. If we both obey them, then all those around us are safe. A society where these commandments are followed voluntarily will have justice, peace, liberty, prosperity and happiness.

It took awhile, with some prompting from the men and women who fought our war for independence, for me to grasp that the Laws of Nature would have to be inferred from observations of life as it unfolds around us. We develop common sense when we see that when someone does not look where they are going they are likely to get run over by a horse and buggy or a speeding car. Or if they are in unfamiliar territory and in too much of a hurry, they might find themselves at the bottom of a cliff.

Common sense would tell you that if you fail to follow commandments against murder, adultery, theft, perjury, and envy, there will be undesirable consequences. Some are short-term: as in being punished by the authorities for committing crimes of murder, theft, lying under oath, fraud, or the break-up of a marriage and family. All these have long-term consequences for the victims in particular and society in general.

In our time, we have Twelve-Step groups for people with substance and/or behavior addictions. These are mostly people whose parents failed to live by these commandments. Their children end up not know how to be responsible and end up with broken lives. The path out of this living hell is learning how to recognize toxic thinking, behavior and the unavoidable consequences. American society today is a testament to the consequences of widespread failure to use common sense, for common sense would tell you that obedience to God's commandments is the path that leads to Liberty and Happiness in this world.

The "sins of the fathers" comes from the Second Commandment and it is all about Cause and Effect. The Universe God made is governed by physical and metaphysical laws of Cause and Effect. The Golden Rule is the summation of the Laws of God and Nature. Liberty is the consequence of living in harmony with them.

So what do you think they are all about?

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Karen Renfro
on February 28, 2019 at 18:50:33 pm

Well, long before 300 B.C., both men and women in the ancient Mediterranean world wore cornrows. You can see the various ways they dressed their hair using this technique in the art and artifacts they left behond, all of which we can date. I have the impression that cornrows were popular in ancient Egypt in the time of Moses. I think it would have to have been a status symbol because you really need someone else to dress your hair for you--I've tried to do my own but failed to achieve the desireds results.

This business of white privilege is usually presented as if all whites are privileged and all blacks are oppressed. Well, I'm white and neither I nor my family nor most of my ancestors were privileged. In fact, my dad, mother, my siblings and myself moved to a town where our social status was about the same as the Mexicans and blacks from the wrong side of the tracks. I always thought it was because we were poor. But, later, I realized that many Hispanic and black students in my high school class were popular and belonged to the most elite social group, so that could not have been the reason. Later, after reading Judith Martin, I realized it has to do with social skills.

Then, there was the time when three influential black women, all of whom came from well-to-do families and obtained college degrees before affirmative action, accused me of being a product of white privilege and insisted I was racist because I am white. Nothing I said changed their minds. They were incensed that I mentioned my ancestors voted for Abraham Lincoln and fought for the Union during the Civil War because they hated slavery. I told them that I was neither the product of privilege nor racism. I was brought up to respect other people regardless of race or religion, and I would have been punished if I had used a racial slur anywhere within his earshot. I had no problem following this rule because I thought the persecution of blacks was despicable. Dr. Martin Luther King was one of my heroes. They said I was racist and privileged because I am white, case closed.

I think it would be good if, instead of slandering people because of their race, we followed King's example and judged one another by the content of our character and not the color of our skin. In order to do that, we need to exercise Common Courtesy and listen to each other more.

"Liberty is a power to do was we would be done by."
John Adams, 1819

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Karen Renfro
on March 01, 2019 at 19:43:04 pm

Parting thought: Amanda Marcotte has an essay on Cancel Culture--the impulse to discard artwork created by artists such as Michael Jackson who turn out to have sexually abused people. She remarks:

Cancel culture, in fact, is an incoherent and inadequate response to sexual abuse. People turn to it because real justice is elusive. Unable to punish the men who actually commit and perpetrate sexual assault, fans instead punish themselves, sacrificing the pleasures of "Rock With You" or "Ignition (Remix)" in a desperate desire to create some consequences in a world that rarely offers any for these kinds of misdeeds.

But if there was some assurance that real justice was possible, would cancel culture even feel necessary or important to so many people? Could we better separate the art and the artist if we could use a set of prison bars to do it?

I can't help but think the answer is yes.

Much like Cancel Culture, objections to cultural appropriation seem like an incoherent and inadequate response to to problems inflicted upon people of color. Yet, in the absence of any real hope for justice, maybe people embrace these objections as the only opportunity for symbolic redress available?

Just a thought.

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nobody.really
on March 02, 2019 at 20:12:11 pm

Let us watch as the lunatic fringe of the SJW cadres continue to consume their own.

Here we see the Socialist darling, Bernie (I love Venezuela & There ain;t no dictator there) Sanders is taken to task because he employed a WHITE REGGAE BAND:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/timothymeads/2019/03/02/liberals-pounce-after-report-says-a-white-reggae-band-performed-at-bernie-sanders-n2542480

Oh the bloody humanity of it all.

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gabe
on June 29, 2019 at 15:18:04 pm

Nobody has personally been oppressed for hundreds of years, the same way that we cannot change what our ancestors did (or people who happened to be of our race). This argumentation is weird. Does wearing your hair in dreads hurt people today? My question is: Would it not be better to try to motivate white and other people who wear their hair in dreads to fight for the right of black people to wear their hair in locs at school and for work, instead of trying to "oppress" them by deciding for them who can wear what? Also, locs are not the same as dreads, strictly speaking, so...
To me, the discussion feels like "we" (big quotation marks, because how many people do the ones we hear/ read actually represent?) want to decide what "you" can wear and we will be louder and louder until you comply. The result seems to be white people, especially, getting a lot of restrictions on their personal expressions, and some POC also getting some restrictions on their personal expressions, resulting in people being afraid/ very careful in how they dress/ style their hair/ dance/ express themselves/ what they say/ what they are generally allowed to do. Do you, do WE really want to go there? Where will it stop? The government, someday, giving guidelines about who can wear, say, do what the way it was in the Middle Ages (no bright colors for working class poor people e.g.)?

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Frederica
on July 01, 2019 at 16:39:57 pm

This whole "Culturqal Appropriation" issue is absurd. Hairstyles have been down from one generation to another and one culture to another for millenia. For example:

1. In Old Testament times, the hairstyle of Assyrian men included cornrows that were drawn to the back and fastened behind with the hair at the back hanging loose. A lock of hair that came down over their sideburns on each side was left loose. Since their hair was curly, these locks were a long, long curl. Later, at some point, captive Jews appropriated that style. As styles changed they retained those side-locks as a sign (I'm sorry, I forget what they are called).

2. The hairstyle favored by Roman women included those cornrows and laborious winding of the thin braids into a bun on the back of the head (you can see how this is done in the BBC series "I, Claudius").

3. The hairstyles favored by Celtic tribes included one we in our time identify as a kind of "pioneer girl" style. But, in prehistoric times (say, more than 1,000 years ago), my ancestors--both men and women--were wearing their hair long and full with the front drawn up and back with the rest of the hair hanging loose. Sometimes this involved braids and sometimes not. It is identical to a hairstyle favored by native tribes in North America, going back to pre-Columbian times. It is also a style that was worn by ancient Japanese Samurai.

4. The hairstyles favored by upperclass European women during the 17th & 18th centuries included a complicated and stylized version of the wild Celtic and American tribes, puffed up into a balloon-like headdress with curls and decorations, a la Madame de Pompadore. Lower-class European and American girls and women wore this same style, only very plain by comparison, and their custom preceded the aristocrats.

5. That same style has been popular in America ever since, it is seen as a "pioneer girl" style. It often includes braids made from hair that frames the face drawn back and tied with a ribbon or leather.

6. The Romans favored short hair for men, a style that never went completely out of favor even after the Fall. Hellenized Jewish men who wore their hair short would keep the lock over their sideburns. Short hair for men came back in Europe abnd America during the 19th Century. That style has been appropriated by men all over the world.

7. Western dress is favored by government, businessmen, and ordinary men and women from various societies worldwide.

8. In the U.S., the Hawaiian Muu-muu became popular as summer wear for women and girls when the islands became a territory and then joined the Union.

9. In the U.S., the Japanese style Kimono robe is popular as a barthrobe or dressing gown for men and women.

10. In Hawaii, men and women with native ancestry wear Western dress, and men and women with no Hawaiian ancestry wear native dress. It is considered the thing to do.

I could go on and on. But, if we appoint an "appropriations police" to prevent people from wearing the hairstyles and clothing that they want, there will be no end to the absurdities we would suffer.

Obviously, it is time for a reality Check.

It would mean if you don't have European ancestry you would not ever be allowed to wear Western style hair or clothing and be restricted to whatever the people in your ancestral homelands are wearing. Women with European ancestry would never be able to wear a kimono, a muu-muu, a caftan, a pareu, a Nehru jacket, a parka, or any number of other garments that suit their tastes or politics. It means an ethnic restaurant whose waiters and waitresses wear native dress would not be able to hire qualified people from other cultures. it means opera singers and actors would not be able to wear the proper costumes for their roles.

It means I would never be able to see a live production of "Mikado" again. And lest you leap to the erroneous conclusion that it was intended to ridicule Japanese culture, think again. The first performance featured accurate hair, make-up, clothing, manners and customs of Japanese society, a tradition that has been followed as often as possible ever since. This is why the "pompadour" hairstyle for women became popular in the West--because it was so beautiful and elegant, and easy to do. Japanese music and food became popular.

I suppose it means I would never be able to eat Sushi or drink Sake again.

It would mean Chef Walter Staib would not be able to fix Caribbean food or show us how on his television show. Or teach us that American cuisine is so multi-faceted you would never have to leave our shores to travel the world from the comfort of your own kitchen table.

The Sioux Chef would never be allowed to make a Paella. And if you were invited to a Hawaiian barbecue, you would not be allowed to go because you would have to eat pig roasted Hawaiian style and that would not would not be permitted. You might be able to bring your own pan-fried pork chops if your ancestry allowed it.

People, people, people.

Attitude Adjustment:

Human beings have been appropriating styles from other cultures since perhistoric times. That is how we develop our tastes and come up with new ways to do things. Culture and society are not static.

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Karen Renfro
on July 26, 2019 at 12:38:31 pm

Did you consider the possibility that you are simply a shitty person... In order for a American of European decent to retain any degree of moral integrity they would have to place high priority to the work of undoing the unjust condition for people of color as a result of historical atrocities and the ideologies that they were founded upon. Thankfully this is what many white Americans do; the work of addressing the injustices as well as the probably equally challenging task of undoing the toxified thinking that is so deeply embedded in our culture. Deliberately and audaciously challenging these notions however, (which mind you takes a minute amount of effort), doesn’t bode well for the redemption of white people in America as the more meaningful work that needs to occur also requires significantly more integrity and piety. The attitude and tone you convey that are so common in today’s discourse are also so plainly immoral and thuggish as to be totally absurd to any scrupulous person who wasn’t enculturation in a society steeped in violent white supremacy and oppression. The universal principle that those with power should not bully and terrorize those who have been deprived of it should tell you that this type of thinking is wrong, yet it doesn’t; and people who consider themselves moral find it perfectly acceptable to abandon this simplest of rules when applied in the context of black people in America. That is a real tragedy.

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Alsace71
on August 04, 2019 at 12:00:14 pm

[…] V tomto článku profesor Mike Rappaport píše o tom, že idea CA je nekonzistentná s ideou kultúrneho rozvoja a vzájomného obohacovania sa, ktorá je základom slobodnej spoločnosti. […]

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Cultural Appropriation - alebo prečo toľko kriku pre jednu čelenku - Lenivá Matka
on August 09, 2019 at 18:25:11 pm

It seems to me that the best way for American society to ensure that the wearing of Dreadlocks by blacks would be acceptable in polite society is this: let us all wear Dreadlocks to work, school, church, restaurants, meetings and so forth. That way, the outcome will have to be either it is okay for everybody or not okay for anybody.

As long as your hair is reasonably clean and I don't find one in my soup, I'm pretty much okay with how people wear their hair. I just hope they consider what is appropriate to the occasion out of respect for others (funerals, weddings, solemn ceremonies, hearings, school, etc.). I don't think the government should decide how we wear our hair, but if private citizens or groups want to make rules about it, that is fine with me.

I say this as someone whose Celtic ancestors wore Dreadlocks. As far as I know, no Africans took offense at my ancestors for doing so. Probably because they all appropriated the style from the ancient Romans who would have taken it from the Assyrians or Medes.

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Standing Fast
on August 15, 2019 at 05:30:03 am

cultural appropriation is about things that have meaning not food or cars or medicine. you sound stupid

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rein
on August 15, 2019 at 13:11:42 pm

Guttenergs Press & Brewery:

I've just re-read your post and discovered that your succinct commentary really nails this conundrum to the wall. We AEW all mutts. A long time ago I read a book entitled "A Mountain of Names" by Alex Shumatoff. It is a well-researched history of the human family of particular interest to genealogists, long out of print. I gave my copy to somebody in a fit of generosity. But, I do remember a few things of interest:

If you trace your ancestors back 1,000 years or so, you will discover that you will have an ancestor in common with everyone alive on the earth today.

Men pass along a particular chromosome to their sons, and once in every so many generations, it might mutate. This is how geneticists can trace the male line back to some place of origin, or determine what DNA group they belong to.

All it takes is one visitor to an isolated social unit to leave behind their DNA once every 100 years to keep the group from becoming inbred. It takes awhile for it to get passed around to future generations, but it is enough to keep a group healthy. And that is how we got to be mutts very early on.

The reason we are all mutts is that from the first day the first little band of human beings left Africa. humans have been traipsing all over the globe, setting up shop everywhere we went. If we met someone else along the way we might fight, we might become friends, we might become trading partners, we might become allies, we might become marriage partners (the group from which we choose our children's mates), we might just keep moving on. And, most of the time, we would have left our DNA behind.

For example, according to Ancesry.com, my ancestors came from Ireland, England, Wales, Germany, Scandinavia, and so forth. But each of these came from somewhere else. And they came at different times by various routes. By the time each group arrived in Europe and the British Isles they had come a long way and acquired some new DNA. But, I think they were already mutts before they left their so-called "original" homeland.

The original homeland for all human beings is Africa, in the Rift Valley. So, on the one hand we are all mutts, but on the other, we are all members of the same family. And, if the human race lasts long enough, eventually we will all share the same surname of "Johnson".

If our ancestors had not appropriated customs of others they came into contact with, we would all still be making our weapons from stone and eating raw game and wearing animals skins or grass skirts and living in huts made of mud, thatch, or ice. We would not have fire, we would not have the wheel, we would not have irrigation, none of us would be eating wo well. There is no cuisine anywhere in the world that is still limited to its original repertoire of foodstuffs.

Hairsryles are only one manifestation of the benefits of contact with other groups than our own. In America it is awfully hard to figure out how to live without appropriating somebody else's ways. It actually can't be done.

I think the whole controversy is silly and those who think people wear their hair to insult or demean others might do well to find something else to do with themselves besides finding fault with people they don't like.

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Standing Fast
on August 15, 2019 at 13:13:16 pm

Oops. "AEW" should be "are" in my previous comment.

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Standing Fast
on August 28, 2019 at 15:13:42 pm

What people don't seem to understand about Cultural Appropriation is that the idea stems from colonialism. White people colonized lands and took aspects of people's cultures while oppressing them in the same breath. They killed people and took credit for much of the creativity that other races contributed. To add, the mocked people's cultural heritage and changed the entire spiritual meaning of some parts of people's cultures. The whole idea behind cultural appropriation is not to bar white people from observing or participation. The idea is to encourage white people to respect peoples cultures and understand the meaning beghind them. Stop trying to trademark peoples language and sue people for the use of their own language and culture. Stop wearing religious and cereminial garb as Halloween costumes or mascots.

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Raven Henderson
on August 30, 2019 at 11:54:07 am

Aw, the ancient Romans were a bunch of cultural appropriators, anyway. They were wannabe-Greeks.

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Ανώνυμος
on August 30, 2019 at 16:43:41 pm

Well, actually, the historical record shows "white people" were not the only ones who engaged in colonizing other people's territories. It was going on all over the world as societies became more developed (larger, complicated, prosperous). When a dominant society engaged in forming and expanding an empire, the diversification of the population lead to all kinds of appropriation up and down every level and branch of the empire.

Adopting the customs of newer members was a fad among the older members, and adopting the customs of the conquering empire was a fad among the new members. The Roman Empire had as many new countries who joined voluntarily (Judea, for example) as were victims of force (Britain),

But, appropriation also took place between trading partners, even at the hunter-gatherer stage. When people discovered as useful, attractive, or novel item or way of doing something, they would figure out a way to make it their own. I have never read that anybody went to war because of this.

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Standing Fast
on September 02, 2019 at 15:29:58 pm

Food has featured heavily in discussions/protests about cultural appropriation including shops like M&S selling 'wrongly' labelled sandwiches, celebrity chefs like Gordon Ramsey and Jamie Oliver daring to cook Chinese food or Jamaican rice ('incorrectly' labelled) as well universities serving the 'wrong' kind of sushi.

I'm afraid you've just made yourself sound stupid.

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Image of Butter Balls
Butter Balls
on September 02, 2019 at 15:34:24 pm

Hasidic Jews have very distinct clothes. Mentioning them isn't stereotyping all Jews at all.

White people wearing dreadlocks isn't cultural appropriation, matted hair isn't owned by any group (or indeed species as dogs will get dreads if they're not regularly brushed) but black people being shamed for wearing them and white people not is an example of racism.

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Butter Balls
on September 02, 2019 at 16:00:42 pm

You don't care about the real, acute suffering of cows but do care about faux outrage about something as ludicrous as cultural appropriation which hurts no-one. That makes you the absolute epitome of a silly SJW.

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Butter Balls
on September 02, 2019 at 16:02:44 pm

What you are actually objecting to is racism not 'cultural appropriation'.

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Butter Balls
on September 22, 2019 at 04:01:05 am

There’s a dog have dreadlocks . This is the most stupidest thing to argue about who’s who are allowed. Any one can have dreadlocks/nappy hair if they don’t brush their hair for long time it could form in that way. Let’s debate about saving the planet stop focusing on what hair we have .

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Nobody special
on October 19, 2019 at 06:08:21 am

Very unfortunate that the author of this article did no research into the topic. Before writing an article on Cultural Appropriation it is probably best to find out more about the subject at hand rather than criticizing without any more substance than an entitled and naive opinion. Very lazy.

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Image of Josh
Josh
on October 30, 2019 at 15:13:32 pm

That's not always true. It's not always about things that have "meaning". Even clothing items are being criticized now. If someone wears a kimono who's not Japanese, that's considered racist.. Which is the stupidest thing I ever heard. By the way, I'm Chinese. If an American walked around in traditional Chinese garb, I would NOT be offended. Go for it. We don't own the rights to something just because it came from our region or just because "my people" came up with it first. Go play dress up for all I care. Most people dress up because they think it's pretty. Nothing wrong with that.

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Image of Jessica Lee
Jessica Lee
on October 30, 2019 at 20:31:24 pm

When I was about 14, a Japanese friend I babysat for gave me a kimono. It was made of silk and I was very proud of it. Used it as a dressing gown/robe for years. I cannot think how this would have been offensive to anybody.

I think there are people out there who just look for something to complain about.

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Image of Standing Fast
Standing Fast
on November 03, 2019 at 11:49:29 am

POC are appropriating Celtic hair styles, see you can carry this foolishness to all sorts of extremes.
Berry to throw the whole ridiculous thought process out and stop being so offended all the time.

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Dave
on November 03, 2019 at 12:28:54 pm

Your essay here is fundamentally fallacious, as it is wholly based on a definition of cultural appropriation that is either fantastically ignorant or a straw-man lie.

I can't believe you're a professor of law if you're writing poorly reasoned, dishonest garbage like this.

"The basic idea is that the group or nationality or ethnicity who developed some practice should be the ones who are allowed to practice it."

That is not even true! That is NOT what cultural appropriation is about!

It is about the powerful exploiting the marginalized when it suits their purposes and then marginalizing them the rest of the time.

It is about meaningful cultural practices being ripped from context and exploited for someone else's entertainment!

You are applying a definition to the term "cultural appropriation" that no critic of such appropriation would attach to it. You owe your readers an apology because this stub of an essay was not written in good faith or with due diligence.

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Dick Grimm
on November 03, 2019 at 16:47:08 pm

This whole article is complete bullshit. Who gave you a degree? Donald Trump? Sure, practices from other cultures are passed down to the next, but those practices do and should be used for a higher purpose, not for fun. White people act like every tribe wore headdresses. Headdresses were worn by certain tribes and by certain people, not for fun. It is cultural appropriation because headdresses, among several other things in the culture, are used sacredly, and only for that purpose. I don’t know how people can be so ignorant.

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Halie
on November 03, 2019 at 18:49:54 pm

One of the most illogical and ill informed “academic” writings I’ve ever read. No space is given to the systemic oppression and actual LEGISLATION that outlawed Indigenous people from wearing these clothes or performing their religions. You take without context and in doing so you continue the cycles of stereotypes and oppression.

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Stephanie Fogel
on November 03, 2019 at 19:02:27 pm

Humm, really? Did you know Native Americans where not U.S. citizens until 1924...
Did you know that Native Americans didn’t have the right to vote in some states until the late 60’s.
Did you know that Native Americans didn’t have a right to govern their own tribal lands up until the 70’s and they really still don’t have full say - yet Native Americans are still a sovereign nations within the U.S.
Do you realize that their are over 500 federally recognized native tribes in the U.S. alone - FYI that isn’t counting state or other tribes that fall into a different category - nor does it count on other Native tribes in the Americas - don’t forget the Americas is made up of North, Central and South...
So with that said I guess what is going on in South America would fit into you box - even if they are still stealing land, burning down their forest and killin them...
Hummm, nope it is still going on today.
Lastly so if Native took something from other religions (like Catholicism or any other major religion) and made them into costumes and stuff folks would be fine with that? Just asking...

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Image of Chuck Boers
Chuck Boers
on November 04, 2019 at 03:53:57 am

[…] https://www.lawliberty.org/2019/02/26/cultural-appropriation/ … […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson gets backlash after wearing a Native American headdress for Halloween – Liquidskill
Pamela Anderson gets backlash after wearing a Native American headdress for Halloween – Liquidskill
on November 04, 2019 at 06:32:06 am

You have got him there. Cultural Appropriation is not about dreadlocks, it is just another branch of grievance studies, perpetuated by a culture of mewling brats we've created over the last 30 years.

2018 was the first year that non-white children in the USA were a majority in the first year of elementary education. It will be quite amusing 15 years from now to see Caucasian university students berate their non-white classmates and professors for dying their hair blonde, wearing ties and using guitars.

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TRN
on November 04, 2019 at 07:49:33 am

Cultural Appropriation, like White Supremacy, is a "myth" created by Liberals, Socialist and JSW Groups to justify their "existence !!! If this is Cultural Appropriation than Indians need to STOP wearing Blue Jeans and ANYTHING made of Cotton (White European Discovery), STOP driving Cars and going to Schools, Hospitals (White European Discovery). MOST IMPORTANTLY, INDIANS SHOULD IMMEDIATELY STOP SELLING INDIAN DRESS TO ANYONE NOT AN INDIAN (EXCEPT ELIZABETH WARREN BECAUSE SHE CAN'T DECIDE AND IT DEPENDS ON THE MOONS CYCLE).

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John Phillips
on November 04, 2019 at 08:12:52 am

I work on a reservation in North Dakota. Let me assure you that with Halloween I saw that EXACT hypocrisy. Native Student who was very upset at appropriation came dressed as a nun...She did not see the irony at all

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Teacher in ND
on November 04, 2019 at 09:57:12 am

[…] to her detractors’ claims of cultural appropriation other than to share an article titled “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation.” However, that doesn’t mean she hasn’t engaged with her own backlash. Several users claim to […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson's Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation - Villa Rica News
Pamela Anderson's Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation - Villa Rica News
on November 04, 2019 at 10:01:33 am

[…] to her detractors’ claims of cultural appropriation other than to share an article titled “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation.” However, that doesn’t mean she hasn’t engaged with her own backlash. Several users claim to […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson’s Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation – MNNOFA NEWS
Pamela Anderson’s Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation – MNNOFA NEWS
on November 04, 2019 at 10:04:15 am

[…] to her detractors’ claims of cultural appropriation other than to share an article titled “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation.” However, that doesn’t mean she hasn’t engaged with her own backlash. Several users claim to […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson's Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation | Lite 106.5 KBVA
Pamela Anderson's Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation | Lite 106.5 KBVA
on November 04, 2019 at 10:19:15 am

[…] to her detractors’ claims of cultural appropriation other than to share an article titled “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation.” However, that doesn’t mean she hasn’t engaged with her own backlash. Several users claim to […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson’s Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation – Darcy Ode Butkus
Pamela Anderson’s Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation – Darcy Ode Butkus
on November 04, 2019 at 10:23:43 am

tell that to the burrito stand that got shut down in Portland because the owners were not Mexican.

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karl swenson
on November 04, 2019 at 10:24:14 am

What about black people who dye their hair blonde? Is that cultural appropriation? It seems to be only white people get accused of this. Let me be clear, I don't care what color your hair is. You should wear it in a way that makes you feel comfortable. I just think people are carrying this to extreme. I happen to be German American. Does that mean no one else can drink German beer? My family has been here since the 1800's. One of the great things about being an American is that most of us are from somewhere else.
I identify as an American, in all of our colorful glory.

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Janet Sanders
on November 04, 2019 at 10:50:23 am

Good post. I respectfully offer a spelling change to your closing John Adams quote, in which I think you mean "as" where you wrote "was."

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Tim Stevens
on November 04, 2019 at 12:03:37 pm

[…] to her detractors’ claims of cultural appropriation other than to share an article titled “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation.” However, that doesn’t mean she hasn’t engaged with her own backlash. Several users claim to […]

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Image of Pamela Andersons Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation – Fox News | ViralWoo
Pamela Andersons Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation – Fox News | ViralWoo
on November 04, 2019 at 12:49:00 pm

Cultural appropriation is not so much to refuse people the right to experience other peoples cultures. I feel its about the way to chose to represent that culture that makes it inappropriate or offensive. I think when you represent the culture in a way that doesn't positively represent a peoples' culture that doesn't belong to you, you should always do it with respect. What Pamela Anderson did was offensive and rightfully so people with opinions have the right to speak up about how offending her outfit was. I'm sure the issue was not her costume but how she chose to represent herself while in a costume that represents a people. Its easy to state the illogic of cultural appropriation when you have no culture to defend. The question is, was what she wearing and the culture she represented appropriate and a respectful cultural representation? Know one should have to defend how offended that costume made them feel. Its her prerogative to represent herself how she feels but that will come with the much needed criticism. If she was dressed up in her Native American head gear and chose to be respectful and depicted accurate representation maybe she could've spare herself the backlash, but who knows maybe she wanted to get that kind of publicity.

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Codi Johnson
on November 04, 2019 at 13:00:18 pm

The issue with cultural appropriation is modern day political correctness taken to another new high. Cultural appropriation is the story of humankind. As one civilization rose in power and conquered another the victors adopted the parts of the conquered culture that appealed to them, and often destroyed those parts that did not. The Romans adopted many aspects of the Greek culture, and the process has continued down through the centuries. As a species we copy what we like and either ignore or destroy what we don’t. Cultural appropriation ensures that cultures survive through the years. Much like our DNA, they may get changed along the way, but the original elements are still there.

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Morlock1000
on November 04, 2019 at 13:00:35 pm

What do you mean by stating "Its easy to state the illogic of cultural appropriation when you have no culture to defend."
That sounds like you are saying white people have no cultural background.

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Image of Janet
Janet
on November 04, 2019 at 13:01:42 pm

[…] to her detractors’ claims of cultural appropriation other than to share an article titled “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation.” However, that doesn’t mean she hasn’t engaged with her own backlash. Several users claim to […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson’s Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation – Fox News – New Jacks
Pamela Anderson’s Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation – Fox News – New Jacks
on November 04, 2019 at 13:07:34 pm

Historical context gets lost every time in this debate. History is rife with examples of all races visiting oppression on minority groups at different points in time. It seems to be inherent within human nature to exploit minority groups for gain. Many of the examples that get held up today as the worst offenses are really a function of technology based advantage giving certain groups the ability to visit that exploitation more broadly.

However all societies and races have demonstrated a susceptibility to developing biases and have shown that they will leverage advantages over others to their own gain.

Part of what makes civilization work and our wonderful country evolve past some of our inherent human failings and societal weaknesses is people's ability to learn, listen, compromise and build together. Singling out certain races, cultures and peoples as being root cause of issues is actually a reflection on a persons inability to recognize their own groups similar shortcomings. Look to your own group's past and you will find similar behaviors, exploitation, and ill-use of minority groups. It is a human failing in general. If you cannot recognize that you will never be able to relate to other groups.

Instead if you focus on the fact that this country, which is comprised of every single race, has evolved and continues to evolve and seek better ways for the benefit of all its inhabitants is something you can take great pride in. Rather than identify politics it is better to look at your own group's past behaviors and misdeeds and compare that to our current country's history. We have been on a long journey to evolve and every single race, nation and group has contributed since our founding. There is nothing about this country that belongs to one group. Not our laws, not our government and not our culture or values.

Maybe we could all start focusing on that reality and that human nature is our our enemy not our historical past.

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OneNation
on November 04, 2019 at 13:15:18 pm

Whether black people wearing dreadlocks were discrimianted against or not has nothing to do with cultural appropriation. First of all, it's not as if people are comparing apples-to-apples.

If you have an employer that forbids black people from having long hair but not white people, that's racism. But people don't copmpare it like that. They see some white guy with dreads who may or may not be employed and scream cultural appropriation because some workplaces discriminate against long hair at some point.

Your "culture's" hair doesn't belong to you. period. Neither does their clothing.

i find it telling that 90% of the time, the outcry is from Americans. no actual Japanese person cares that a westerner is wearing a kimono. it's Asian Americans.

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Anthony
on November 04, 2019 at 13:30:19 pm

“Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.” The accusation of "cultural appropriation" is another empty criticism leveled by neo-marxists designed to create discord, confusion and chaos in an attempt to undermine and discredit a free society in order to make socialism and communism appear as attractive alternatives. It doesn't matter that their criticisms are illogical and self contradictory, they are not designed to appeal to human reason but to human emotion. If you can convince enough people that they have been marginalized, disenfranchised, victimized, etc.. by traditional social attitudes and practices then you can foster revolution. Nor does it matter that the greatest genocides in human history all occurred under "enlightened" socialist and communist regimes in the 20th century because the truth can be changed. Under neo-marxism there is no objective truth, instead, truth is a social construct, that is, the truth is whatever the majority believes it to be. Accordingly, a man can be a woman and vice versa. When you deny reality, anything is possible, or more accurately, appears to be possible. It's an incredibly self destructive "social construct" but we ignore the harm because it promises us anything and everything. However, always and everywhere it delivers death and destruction. We are like the gambler who keeps losing yet keeps playing in hopes of winning that one big hand because we are addicted. What are we addicted to? We are addicted to the notion of being our own god. That we can decide what is right and wrong, and "what is truth" not the Natural Law written by God the Creator.

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Brian Sellers
on November 04, 2019 at 13:43:01 pm

Thank you!

Liberty, as understood by America's founders, is for everybody who wants to share it with everybody else.

Socialism, fascism, communism, etc., are against everybody except those who are willing to violate the laws of God & Nature to get it.

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Image of Standing Fast
Standing Fast
on November 04, 2019 at 13:52:19 pm

Well this is a stupid f*king argument and it shows why racism is based on ignorance. Wearing a kimono, blue jeans, corn rows are all a little different compared to dressing up AS AN INDIAN, AS A BLACK PERSON, AS AN ASIAN. That's when it becomes inappropriate and if you do it, you're an asshat.

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Image of Chris
Chris
on November 04, 2019 at 14:04:14 pm

What's really racist about your comment is that in the same breath you are talking about POC and immigrants as if they are one in the same. When in reality not all POC are immigrants and not all immigrants are POC. Many white immigrants to the U.S. have also faced widespread discrimination and pressure to assimilate. And if you're going to move to a new country, it's illogical to expect to have to assimilate to some extent to get by in that environment and you should expect that if you don't assimilate that others in the larger society are going to look at you differently because you're chosing to be different. If someone is being different than everyone else then they certainly shouldn't expect to be considered the same. I don't agree with forced assimilation but it's just common sense that chosing to do otherwise would create struggles for that person to succeed in their new surroundings. That's just simply a fact no matter what color a person is or where they are immigrating to.

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Image of John
John
on November 04, 2019 at 14:05:59 pm

You all sound like you'd be fun at parties. I came here cause I was wondering if it's cultural appropriation for me to wear a mohawk. I'm not a native american, and I'm not white. After reading comments for like 5 minutes, I've come to realize- I'm a punky greaser so I dont give a damn what anyones opinion of me is. It's my hair I'll style it how I want to and if you come at me with cultural appropriation in real life, I'll punch you in the face. That'll give you some REAL problems to deal with. So far nobody's gotten in my face about it, the only thing related to cultural appropriation I see are these threads online where both sides of the argument are circle jerking each other and standing on soap boxes.
Then again I live in hawaii where white people are a minority and I dont have to deal with this kinda crap publicly.

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Pissoff
on November 04, 2019 at 14:08:14 pm

John Phillips: Thank you for pointing these things out. Got a good laugh! I guess white folks will have to stop eating popcorn, beans, chili peppers, tomatoes, California pecans, cranberry sauce, roast turkey, mashed potatoes, pumpkin pie, bison, tacos, curry, sushi, Gyros, shish kebabs, baklava, watermelon, and so forth. Also drinking tequila, vodka, Metaxa, coffee, black tea, green tea, lemonade, orange juice, Fiji Water, and a bunch of other stuff.

Yes, cultural appropriation is an evil that inspires people to become trading partners with people they'd never met. The trade goods mean more prosperity for everyone involved in the chain of transactions along the way. This must be stopped before we discover we all like one another very much and want to spend more time making stuff to sell to people who to buy it or trade it for something we want. We must stop travelling the world and seeing what there is to see, learning each other's languages & customs, gaining knowledge & understanding from one another...

Yes, we must at all costs maintain strict separation of races & cultures lest we all learn to get along and enjoy the best of each others' contributions to our civilization. By all means, let's continue being suspicious of outsiders, avoiding contact at all costs.

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Standing Fast
on November 04, 2019 at 14:12:42 pm

I agree fully. We take things to far bigger extremes, like everything affects you even if it isn't directed or involves you. For soooooo many years, people have dressed up as witches for Halloween. Where are those witches, are they casting spells and damning those who dress up like them. After all, it is in our history that we have killed those who may be witches. I think it's silly. And when it comes to beautifully created clothes or headdresses, why are we hating? I've seen so many beautiful pieces, ART, and to be ran down with negative comments and made to feel ashamed and put down. What is the real problem here? As a good friend of mine said " the whole idea of "that's not from your culture, therefore you cant have access to it" is ridiculous."

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Image of Anna Woodward
Anna Woodward
on November 04, 2019 at 14:25:07 pm

Stephanie:
I do not understand why it is not okay for me to wear a handmade Japanese silk kimono or a beautiful cotton Aztec dress if I want to. What do past transgressions of our ancestors toward one another have to do with the blessings of cultural appropriation in our own time? There is no race or culture that is not guilty of aggression against others. If we all go around nursing our grievances there never will be peace on earth, or even in our own neighborhood.

Some people will never acknowledge this, but if I let their bad manners spoil my life I will never be happy. And it won't be their fault. It will be mine.

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Image of Standing Fast
Standing Fast
on November 04, 2019 at 14:42:47 pm

Doesn't intent matter?

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Image of karl D swenson
karl D swenson
on November 04, 2019 at 14:53:16 pm

Regarding America's first Thanksgiving:

In fact, the Pilgrims landed in a place where there were different Native American tribal groups living in close proximity to one another. Some of the tribes were hostile to some of the others, and there were shifting alliances along them based on all kinds of politics going on.

The story of the First Thanksgiving is one of the most interesting episodes in American history. Chief Massasoit was a great leader and he and his men were invited by the Mayflower survivors to celebrate with them. Knowing the newcomers were short of food, the guests (there were I think about twenty men) brought venison and other provender which meant there was more than enough for everybody.

This does not mean all the local Indians and all the Pilgrims got along. There was trouble, caused by both sides. Not all the Indian tribes joined in when other tribes were attacking the whites, and not all whites approved of aggression against the Indians.

Please refer to National Geographic's "The Mayflower Compact" by Judith Yero. It is a children's book but beautifully written, illustrated and organized, good as an introduction and full of primary sources. It is out-of-print, but you might be able to find it on Amazon.

For those who would like to take an in-depth look at the historical record, there is a wonderful book compiled & edited by Rod Gragg entitled "The Pilgrim Chronicles". Full of quotations from primary sources and commentary that is excellent.

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Image of Standing Fast
Standing Fast
on November 04, 2019 at 14:54:36 pm

another example of the stupidity of so called justice warriors. time ppl told hem where to go and keep on doing what they are doing. I wear, say and go where I want. Period.

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Image of Jerry Salem
Jerry Salem
on November 04, 2019 at 14:58:03 pm

Karl Swenson:

You gotta be kidding!

How did that come to pass, anyway? There is no law saying people can't cook the food of somebody else's ancestors!

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Image of Standing Fast
Standing Fast
on November 04, 2019 at 15:05:45 pm

I would think that cultural appropriation is when you try to use another’s culture for financial or status gain. Playing dress up in a non-demeaning way should not be criticized. As a young child I loved horses and fantasizes about the Nomandic Indian lifestyle. Dressing up as an Indian was a compliment from my perspective because I respected some aspects of the lifestyle from the naive thoughts of a child.

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Image of Carol Millage
Carol Millage
on November 04, 2019 at 15:55:09 pm

Carol:

Thanks for posting your comment. You weren't the only one--but I never had an Indian costume. Darn.

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Image of Standing Fast
Standing Fast
on November 04, 2019 at 16:13:18 pm

It's WAY more common to see a black person in the professional world with dreadlocks (or locs) than a white person with them. I could see some black business executive with dreadlocks pulled back nicely. But a white person??? C'mon.

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Image of Diedrich
Diedrich
on November 04, 2019 at 16:20:48 pm

[…] then responded to the same person in another tweet and shared a link to a story titled “The Illogic of Cultural […]

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Image of Why Pamela Anderson is Being Accused of Cultural Appropriation •   Heard.Zone
Why Pamela Anderson is Being Accused of Cultural Appropriation • Heard.Zone
on November 04, 2019 at 16:28:12 pm

Black folks with dreadlocks are waaay more excepted in the business world than whites with dreadlocks!!! People don't discriminate against blacks because of their hair, they do it because they're black! I understand the opinion that making fun of a culture is bad, but the dreadlock thing is ridiculous. Especially the argument " On blacks it's bad, on whites it's a cool thing that every employer tolerates" That's just not true. A white doctor, lawyer, etc with dreadlocks would look like a freak! (Though they might be some out there somewhere) It's almost common place for black professionals to have them. I've even seen a picture at a temp service that had a poster on the window with a few different color people. The black guy had dreadlocks. Horrible argument that's not based in reality.

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Image of Diedrich M. Jones
Diedrich M. Jones
on November 04, 2019 at 18:31:58 pm

Maybe what has been overlooked in this analysis is appropriating part of a culture after systemically trying to eradicate it. Having been an exchange student in Japan, I would agree that many Japanese people are happy to share their culture - as a westerner, I myself have dressed up in a Kimono with Japanese people and no one found it offensive.

However, if I were descendant of Native Americans who had been subject to decades of assimilation efforts and essentially forced to give up important aspects of their culture only for the descendants of the people who lead the assimilation to adopt significant artifacts from my culture as fancy headwear for music festivals, you better believe I’d be fucking pissed.

The “free world” argument seems a bit naive in the case of cultural appropriation AFTER forced cultural assimilation.

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Image of Dee
Dee
on November 04, 2019 at 20:43:00 pm

Re: Pamela Anderson's "cultural appropriation". It's about Halloween folks ... Chill...get over it. No one has mentioned this yet but I see a strong link between cultural appropriation and the Neo-Puritanism. Making sure all our Halloween costumes are scrupulously politically correct seems as much directed against anyone having FUN as any concern for groups who are alledgedly offended.

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Image of Jackinport
Jackinport
on November 04, 2019 at 22:06:37 pm

[…] article was published, Pamela reacted to the backlash by posting a link to an article titled, “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation” on […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson Reacts To Accusations Of Racism Over Native American Halloween Costume | e-Radio.USa
Pamela Anderson Reacts To Accusations Of Racism Over Native American Halloween Costume | e-Radio.USa
on November 04, 2019 at 22:21:15 pm

They don’t want us white people to start pulling cultural appropriation on people because it would be like this OK you can’t eat pizza you can’t eat hamburgers you can’t use modern science you can’t drive cars you can’t fly airplanes you can’t use the Internet etc. etc. etc. I could go on for the next eight days because white people have invented the modern world so these people don’t want to play this game wear what you want Pam you look hot as hell

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Image of Biggav
Biggav
on November 04, 2019 at 22:36:01 pm

[…] then responded to the same person in another tweet and shared a link to a story titled “The Illogic of Cultural […]

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Image of Why Pamela Anderson is Being Accused of Cultural Appropriation – Naomi Alabi
Why Pamela Anderson is Being Accused of Cultural Appropriation – Naomi Alabi
on November 04, 2019 at 22:40:05 pm

"There is no law saying people can’t cook the food of somebody else’s ancestors!"
Whose ancestors? The burrito is wrapped n a flour tortilla. No wheat (from Europe), no burrito. So I guess only Europeans can make tortillas

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Image of Claude
Claude
on November 04, 2019 at 23:13:47 pm

Don’t we want to share the parts of our culture that have meaning? Don’t we welcome the rest of society to partake in our cultural gradations? I would love to embrace other cultures without the fear of being demoralized by society for doing so.

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Lindsay Stalvey
on November 05, 2019 at 00:14:26 am

[…] article was published, Pamela reacted to the backlash by posting a link to an article titled, “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation” on […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson Accused Of Cultural Appropriation For Pics – Hollywood Life
Pamela Anderson Accused Of Cultural Appropriation For Pics – Hollywood Life
on November 05, 2019 at 00:39:43 am

[…] article was published, Pamela reacted to the backlash by posting a link to an article titled, “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation” on […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson Reacts To Accusations Of Racism Over Native American Halloween Costume – 247 News
Pamela Anderson Reacts To Accusations Of Racism Over Native American Halloween Costume – 247 News
on November 05, 2019 at 01:47:39 am

[…] to her detractors’ claims of cultural appropriation other than to share an article titled “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation.” However, that doesn’t mean she hasn’t engaged with her own backlash. Several users claim to […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson's Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation - News Daily
Pamela Anderson's Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation - News Daily
on November 05, 2019 at 02:37:18 am

[…] to her detractors’ claims of cultural appropriation other than to share an article titled “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation.” However, that doesn’t mean she hasn’t engaged with her own backlash. Several users claim to […]

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Image of Pamela Andersons Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation - Fox News - L'entepreneur
Pamela Andersons Native American Halloween costume gets her accused of cultural appropriation - Fox News - L'entepreneur
on November 05, 2019 at 05:42:57 am

I grew up in the era of significant cultural advancement in the United States, the late 1960's. As a caucasian of Middle Eastern descent I was caught in the middle of viewing the integration of colored peoples, me "the foreigner", and whites. For the most part neither American group seemed to know how to take us. Most neighbors and church friends were quick to accept us. As a young child I was taught to love those around me. I was oblivious to the outside world.

At a young age my family moved from a Maryland suburb of D.C. to southwestern Virginia. I saw and learned how my family and myself at times were discriminated against by both colored and white people. As a naive child I was perplexed. I just wanted to be happy and have friends. Not knowing how the integration of schools and the cultural revolution of the day was transforming the US. Moving from the Mason Dixon line to Mayberry USA was somewhat of a cultural shock for me as a youngster.

As I grew I was able to understand my place in my society and the way, for the most part, people of all colors were starting to accept us. Not just tolerate us. As a young man I learned that as generations advanced the bigotry of the old school of thought was lessening. Although as children on both sides of the spectrum pick up on their parents bigotries they have softened somewhat to this day. As older generations learn about different cultures they learn that we are not so different from each other. The most obvious was that the younger whites and blacks were much more comfortable around my family and I.

As most young people I strived for happiness and acceptance. I learned to notice the sometimes subtle and direct bigotry that was projected towards myself and family. I noticed that many young people's bigotry stemmed from their elders, those around them, and their families.

I must state this plainly. As an older adult I have seen that all societies have inherent racism. Exactly that. No one peoples can honestly claim otherwise. They discriminate against any other race than their own. All humans are tribal in nature. In advanced to third worlld societies. Though as the earth is getting smaller inclusive thought is spreading but will never change all. I feel that most foreigners struggles are to be accepted as equals in their new countries.

An example, immediately after 911, I and my wife as people of middle eastern descent were repeatedly told by both colored people and whites to go back to where we came from. Thinking to myself I'm not even Muslim as they were targeted directly after the attacks.

Saying this I feel that blacks are just as bigoted as are whites. Being somewhat in the middle of both I would here racist remarks often by both groups when alone. Enough with political correctness for truths sake. After two terms of President Obama I saw the nation regressing into deepening racial tension. Colored people didn't seem to get the recognition that they felt they were owed respect and immediate reparations. White people were surprised and rejected and old thoughts returned. Then comes brash President Trump who thinks outloud and is the target of American's racial frustrations. He could not escape being cornered by liberals and minorities. Anyone after President Obama who we all had hopes that he would guide the nation to a new level was going to bear that ire.

Why would anyone think that the world can change when from the the countries down to the individual ultimately everyone to look out for themselves. This will never change. A fool would believe that the whole world would ever be whole.

Only when eveyone confessing that they are even slighty racist and hippocrates would start the ball rolling. I have hope that all our fellow Americans would stop attacking each other and join together. This would show the world that we are what we proclaim.

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Peace
on November 05, 2019 at 06:05:22 am

What a perfect way to present a correction in the comment section.
Just yesterday I was saying, to a buddy of mine, that I appreciate a friendly fyi. Some people are offended, even if it isn't them being corrected!
Hope you don't mind if I 'appropriate' your style.

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Amanda G.
on November 05, 2019 at 07:35:41 am

[…] article was published, Pamela reacted to the backlash by posting a link to an article titled, “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation” on […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson Reacts To Accusations Of Racism Over Native American Halloween Costume – DittoBop
Pamela Anderson Reacts To Accusations Of Racism Over Native American Halloween Costume – DittoBop
on November 05, 2019 at 11:17:13 am

Cultural Appropriation is simply a term to put fear in groups of people. The term spins on itself like a top with hypocrisy. What folks are really upset about is a person disrespecting a certain culture. That's wrong. But if white boys want to break dance, go ahead. Folks want to wear native american gear, go ahead. How are we the Melting Pot of the world without the melting part? Virtually every single thing we do, eat, say is a result of some "borrowing" from another culture. Look it up. From the weaves some of us wear, to the simple act of praying before a meal which stems from Judaism, not Christian. Everything in essence has been "culturally appropriated".

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Jay Aggie
on November 05, 2019 at 11:31:13 am

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/food/wp/2017/05/26/should-white-chefs-sell-burritos-a-portland-restaurants-revealing-controversy/

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karl swenson
on November 05, 2019 at 12:22:06 pm

[…] The “Baywatch” alum responded to critics by sharing an article titled “The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation.” […]

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Image of Pamela Anderson responds to accusations of racism over Halloween costume | e-Radio.USa
Pamela Anderson responds to accusations of racism over Halloween costume | e-Radio.USa
on November 05, 2019 at 12:53:10 pm

The author here completely misses the point. Appropriation is profiting, getting credit, or in any way benefitting from use of artefacts or aspects of a culture without attributing necessary acknowledgment and renumeration. Especially if you are in a position of power and you could have used that opportunity to enhance or in some way benefit the culture or society you are appropriating. Appropriation is parasitic whereas giving back or at the very least acknowledging a culture you are taking from is saprophytic and an absolute win win. So when you practice yoga, you have to acknowledge where its from, would even be abundantly great to financially benefit the yogis in India who continually contribute immensely to the growth of the practice. What westerners continue to do is take and never give anything back. This is the act of a mosquito, be more bee...

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Macmilly
on November 05, 2019 at 13:08:45 pm

Dee, perhaps you are overlooking the fact that pamela Anderson wasn't involved in any forms of cultural genocides or degradations of native americans. Do you have evidence her ancestors were? or are we just ignorantly inferring that because she is a white American that she's guilty by just being a white American? "descendents of people who lead the assimiliation efforst".. so presumably all the those whose ancestors didn't lead or partake in such efforts can "culturally appropriate" then? for you to say the "free world" argument is naïve is a folly... yes how naïve of this professor of law to uphold some expectation that in a free society people should be allowed to dress how they like... evidently the only fools present in the modern era are those subscribing to the postmodernist notion that people removed from wrongdoings by centuries in time and generations of lineage, should be tarred with the same brushes as ancestors who we cant even knowlingly state committed any actual wrong doing. you display your own naivety in the assumption that shes a "descendant" of those who "lead" the force assimilation etc I assume youll go back to the native americans and tell them that as Europeans gave them horses its not appropriate for them to revere them as its not part of their own native culture? oh no let me guess, it has all to do with "power" politic narratives.... because at one point someone with my skin colour and European heritage had power over someone else, im guilty of those crimes still and must humbly accept my position as a tyrannical force who has no rights to assume or even interact with cultural elements of those who were oppressed long ago, by people who weren't me, nor even related to me. Also, 100 years ago japan didn't want to share its culture with anyone and foreigners were banned from entering it for fear theyd diminish the native culture.. even japan realised how stupid such a policy is. culture isn't owned by anyone; nor can it be withheld from anyone, without the totalitarian apparatus of a state to reinforce such things. if you think that believing in freedom is naïve, but assigning historic guilt to modern people completely removed from the "crimes" or wrong doings Is perfectly acceptable, then I sincerely hope you nor anyone of your ilk ever attain political power, for god help us all if you were to.,

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Mark
on November 05, 2019 at 13:19:51 pm

Ironically, a European pastime such as ballet is underfire in britian because not enough non Europeans are allowed to practice it.. but of course, reverse the situation, where non Europeans hold hegemony over a cultural act, and of course whiteys not allowed to play...

Apparently freedom in society doesn't matter anymore, everything has to be controlled lest some bigot like myself of welsh/irish heritage try to partake in some distinctly non European originating passtimes like enjoying some reggae... I suppose I can get away with playing some bob marley as hes half british as well.. but I bet even that fact wont be permissible in allowing me to enjoy a trivial pastime like playing some music.

"oh the bloody humanity of it all" indeed, sir. The illiberal liberals, the fascistic anti-fascists are at it again I see.
Its because someone with your skin colour once exercised power over someone, you know... with all us whitey being the descendants on power wielding tyrants ( a laughable concept really given we are 99% peasants whom never had any power, nor have anymore power than anyone else now).

I despair at how retarded the minds of the young and old alike are these days. they should be free to do and say as they like apparently... not you or I though, we have to be fascistically controlled for having the wrong opinions and/or ancestry... Welcome to the postmodern world.. where slavery is freedom, weakness is strength, stupidity is intelligence and the exercising of power is all that matters.. oh the bloody humanity of it all.

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Mark
on November 05, 2019 at 13:34:06 pm

You know, I get why some of the ire at Pamela Anderson exists. Her two pictures with the native headdresses were both semi nude model poses, the headdress was just a prop. I can understand why some would find that disrespectful

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karl swenson
on November 05, 2019 at 13:48:04 pm

so because of past discriminations we should continue to discriminate?... but 2 wrongs don't make a right. also, find me someone who isn't a postmodernist/cultural Marxists inclined person who espouses any such doctrines as these? this is just political tom-foolery, an attempt to subvert free society in order that the totalitarian socialist utopia of their dreams may be instituted. Freedom is freedom, you cannot limit the freedom of others because people are either too culturally sensitive or indeed insensitive. instead of just talking all people as equals with equal rights to dress, have their hair, cook whatever food they so choose, its better to advocate for making certain categories of peoples who can do certain acts etc and those who cant.. create divisions needlessly, erode freedom and individual liberty? it doesn't matter how you dress it up, like most of the ideals of socialistic fools, in practice all it does is divide peoples and erode freedoms.. so perfectly in keeping with socialisms aims, but not inkeeping with a free and just society in which all are equal and freedom of choice is afforded to all. just actually think about the real world implications, the logical conclusions of going down these roads.. virtue signalling about discrimination is just that, when your apparent resolution are to discriminate against others as readily as those you condemn. no one at anypoint said is fair or just or acceptable that some one with dreads who happens to be black be treated differently than someone with dreads who happens to be white.. that is literally not even the issue here. to use that as justification for the diminishment of individual liberty is in my opinion simply stupid. the issue here is the sheer audacity of those who wish to espouse ideals of freedom and liberty whilst simultaneously try to erode the freedom and liberty of all whom hold contrary views or act in ways that "offends" their over sensitive fragile minds. it is literally freedom as we know it on the line here, a far more important issue than whether one individuals boss didn't like his long hair but liked a white mans long hair.. which to be fair isn't an example anyone can actually provide anyway, its just anecdotal, when has this actually happened? its getting as stupid as gender pay gap arguments that try to say someone working more often (as men often do) who then subsequently earns more as a result is the result of systemic oppression of women. this is just more of that same old postmodernist bull-crap. thinly veiled, politically motivated and not in the interests of a free and just society at all. The purpose of all this is to create a mentally castrated society, devoid of individual liberties... but what else would one expect from something being so fervently pushed by a load of crypto-commies, that is after all the necessary consequence of the manifestation of socialism.

This entire discussion is a complete folly. oh what wonderous lives we lead when our grievances are as trivial as these. Don't let me catch any of you non celts sporting celtic crosses anywhere outside of the celtic lands... it would be an appropriation. my celtic ancestors were oppressed by the African barbary slave trade don't you know... so any Africans out there with a celtic cross had better wise up.. <<< see how ridiculous these arguments are. its a fact celtic stuff is of celtic origin, its a fact africans for a time oppressed celts through the barbarly slave trade. its a fact an entire village in Ireland was wiped out in one night through the heinous slave trade... its also a fact that no African alive today had any part in it, its also a fact that its a free world and if they want to wear a celtic cross they can do so.. its also a fact that if I said no you cant, because someone of your ethnic origin isn't allowed to do that.. that would actually be pretty racist and fascistic. so how ironic that those snowflakes who fight the oppressive fascism and racism of past and present are actually manifestly in their actions amongst the most racist and fascistic people we can find today. Apologies this got a bit rambly and incoherent at times, i'll blame that on the excitation caused by being confronted by such nonsense as this whole issue. Christ, the world needs to wind its neck in, its getting bloody ridiculous out here.

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Mark
on November 05, 2019 at 13:50:52 pm

I understand what you are saying. But, I am a product of about seven different British-Northern European tribes who regularly slaughtered one another, conquered each others' territory, moved in and took over. Or were absorbed into the fold. Brits, Irish, Welsh, Danish, Angles, Saxons, German. Once they got together in England they got along well enough to breed a whole new tribe. In this, they were no different than tribes in the New World.

If I was to pledge my allegiance to any one of the these groups and condemn the rest for the evil things they did to my favorite ancestors, I would be foolish. We live in a time when most of us have great-grandparents (four sets) who come from different cultures, races, or countries. It does no one any good to nurse past grievances, especially as there are more people now who are interested in the cultures & history of others and bear no ill will toward those who are different than themselves.

I don't know why people do some of the things they do, but this is the way human beings have always been and nothing you or I ever do can change that. Maybe it is time we all stopped dwelling on other people's faults and took a look at our own. I'm sure I'll be too busy with mine to notice if you are wearing green on St. Patrick's Day.

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Standing Fast
on November 05, 2019 at 14:36:41 pm

Macmilly:

What you are suggesting is interesting as it bears much similarity to the concept of copyrights and patents for intellectual property and inventions. Your suggestion to acknowledge the source of your appropriation has long been the civilized way, and nobody is stopping anyone from sending money back to the source if they can afford it and want to.

However, I think your accusation that Westerners "continue to take and never give anything back" is uncalled for. Not only is this not true, Americans in particular are the most generous society in the world, sending countless millions (or is it billions or trillions) of charitable dollars, goods and services to people in other countries for all kinds of reasons.

And we have been doing this for centuries. No other country has so many individuals, non-profit organizations and religious groups who do this. All the time.

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Standing Fast
on November 05, 2019 at 14:51:27 pm

Mark:

Enjoyed your comments, the rambling--which made sense despite the lack of punctuation--and the excellent points on Celtic and African history. All on target and amusing at the same time. Made me laugh. Human beings really are hilarious!

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Standing Fast
on November 05, 2019 at 15:09:44 pm

You obviously don't know the meaning of white privledge..white privledge is the natural state of affairs in America. And every white person in America or any first world and most 2nd and 3rd countrys receives it..
It doesnt mean they are all privledged..It means the country treats people differently based on color..like the fact that so many more blacks are killed by police than whites percentage wise..and get 4 times more time in jail for the same crimes..and if you were looking at two people for a job who are equally qualified youre more likely to choose the white candidate than the black or native or hispanic..That goes for rentals..buying condos or homes

Hell people will call the cops on a black family having a picnic..sitting in a resturant..or whatever..
Our opinion of beauty is straight hair..thin nose..light skin and until recently small butt ..
There's literally thousands of little and major differences that add up to white privledge..whether we are talkin about what homeless people get more when panhandling..to POC getting pulled over just because they have an expensive car or just happen to be in a rich neighborhood

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Angel klippenes
on November 05, 2019 at 16:32:18 pm

Yes. Silly to imply that food, cars and medicine even remotely matter in a culture as they’re never really relevant or used.
Dumbass.

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Tkdsipes
on November 05, 2019 at 16:48:11 pm

The head dress, in many native American cultures was reserved for only the warriors and chiefs men/women who earned it. The issue isn't only cultural appropriation but the over sexualization of native women. Native American women have the highest rate of murdered and missing in the United States. Do your research the head dress is equivalent to medals of honor on a soldiers uniform. It's about respecting a culture and understanding it. If you want to celebrate the beauty of Native American people why don't you support them by buying appropriate art, jewelry, music etc., made by local indigenous people of your area. They do exist, and are more than happy to share their culture.

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Angie
on November 05, 2019 at 17:54:58 pm

Cultural appropriation has more to do with the fact that a person of privilege can dress up as someone from a marginalized group and still be treated like a person of privilege, rather than experiencing the oppression a person from a marginalized group experiences. At the end of the day, a white person wearing blackface, for example, gets to wash their face and continue enjoying the privilege that having white skin affords.
Of course, we white people must be able to fully grasp the nuance of race and privilege in order to see the problematic nature of dressing up as people of other races... and I know a lot of white people still have a hard time with these concepts.
The fact that so many white people still think it's ok to wear things that literally don't belong to us is a perfect example of our privileged entitlement. We don't own other peoples' experience, and we are not entitled to their culture.

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EY
on November 06, 2019 at 01:37:40 am

If we pose the two following axiom:

People are not responsible for the deeds or the misdeeds of their ancestors, progeny, other people who speak the same language, other people who share their skin color, other people who yo don't like or like for one reason or another. They are responsible only for their own deeds. The idea is not new - for people who are familiar with the Bible, it is there.

It follows that most group based discrimination, even when called anti-discrimination, is morally incorrect. There is no such thing as Cultural Appropriation; There is a thing called making a mockery of yourself - which is also relative, and anyway not racist unless you do it to make fun of other people for no good reason. Still not Cultural Appropriation.

When I lived in the US for many many years I was considered "White" because of my skin color; I was considered "non-White" and was subject to complaints about "those whites" from other people who were immigrants and so had an accent, like I did, and were also not Christian, like I was not. I am sure "Black" people would have called me "White". I think Americans' attitude regarding group identities is not entirely sane.

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Jesse Cohen
on November 06, 2019 at 14:57:20 pm

"The head dress, in many native American cultures was reserved for only the warriors and chiefs men/women who earned it."
"Do your research the head dress is equivalent to medals of honor on a soldiers uniform. It’s about respecting a culture and understanding it."

This is the argument that should be brought out!!!! To me this isn't so much about cultural appropriation, but about disrespect. The same people who get so angry over players kneeling during the National Anthem think what Pamela Anderson did was o.k.

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Be Better
on November 06, 2019 at 17:39:58 pm

I'm so sick of this. I hate racists. I will always side with black people about how their ancestors were brought here against their will and forced to assimilate. I will always side with black people regarding the fact that they are still treated unfairly. They are still experiencing racism. Look at what these cops are getting away with if you need an example. They are basically using black people as target practice. They rarely even lose their jobs after they have murdered a black person that they pulled over for either something stupid or simply because the person was black. I think any company should be sued out of existence for telling a black person that they can't wear their hair in braids or dreadlocks or just natural. That includes these schools who are telling black children they can't come to school with braids. That is ridiculous. Those are historically black hair styles. I do agree that braids and dreads date back to prehistoric times as well mind you. I have always made a concerted effort to stand up for anyone being discriminated against and I'll continue to do so. I've actually been arrested simply for calling out a cop about how he was breaking the law and harassing my friend (who was black) for absolutely no reason other than he could get away with it. BLACK LIVES MATTER. WHITE SILENCE EQUALS WHITE CONSENT. NO HUMAN IS ILLEGAL. The government needs to revamp the justice system because it is totally skewed to favor white people and cops and to give them lighter sentences. In the cops case they get no time for these murders they continue to commit. We don't want cops who can't control themselves or who are scared of other races. We also don't want the cops who stand there and watch the racism, beatings, and murders happen and do nothing. They are equally guilty of the crime.
Now with all that being said. I am half Italian and half white. I have worn my hair in braids so many times I've lost count. I've worn my hair in other normally black hair styles as well. I change my hair a lot. I will absolutely continue to wear my hair any way I please. I will still get my hair braided when I feel like it. I'll do whatever I want with my hair. I'll wear whatever I want to wear as long as I'm not trying to be offensive. I have never been criticized for having braids by anyone. My stylists are black women. I've received lots of compliments from black women and other races. I have been told at a job that my hair wasn't professional in braids a long time ago. I ignored them. If they would of fired me. I absolutely would have sued the crap out of them. I would have reported it to the news and every social media outlet I could think of. So I would absolutely take up for and support in any way I could any black person who was told they couldn't wear their hair a certain way at work or school. These idiots know that braids are a regular hair style for black people. They should know better but they are stupid and should be sued, reported, boycotted, and anything else we can do. I'm still Italian and white and I'm still going to wear my hair however I want. I'll be getting it braided in a couple months again. No way I'm letting anyone tell me how I can wear my own hair. I like and appreciate the hair style and that's why I will keep wearing braids when I want to. I try all kinds of things with my hair and I'll continue to do so.
I do know the history very, very well. It's a hair style. I'm just enjoying it. And to be clear again, I would stand up against any company or school or organic that told a black person they couldn't wear their hair in braids, dreads, or natural. I'd do it happily. I actually hate racists in any form. You can't tell people how to wear their hair.... Period. These companies and schools should be ashamed. And anyone saying I shouldn't wear my hair in braids can just keep talking. That makes me want to keep it braided all year long. It's not meant to be offensive. It's a hair style that a lot of people like. If your going to wear braids and dreads..... No matter what color.... You should know ALL the history. You should also stand up if you see someone being mistreated for wearing one of these styles. About the only thing I think companies and schools might be able to say something about is someone having their hair purple or pink or something like that. I don't particularly agree with telling people what color their hair should be either but professional wise that makes a little sense. I'm just tired of reading this stuff calling out white people for wearing braids or dreads. Wear your hair however you want. We are all supposed to be free and have freedom of expression. There are so many horrible things going on and people are focusing on a hairstyle. Come on. Let's focus on the killer cops and our wack justice system.

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J Gaines
on November 06, 2019 at 18:35:50 pm

The world is full of REAL PROBLEMS, to solve, so why invent pseudo-problems?

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Tha Brain from Spain
on November 06, 2019 at 21:33:24 pm

'@Guttenburg Press & Brewery,

Thank you! You totally Nailed it.
PC culture is literally going to help be the death of us if people don't start knocking it off. And the Monopolized Lying Main Stream Media is helping to spread the lies, chaos, violence, & straight up hate too. Same with certain lifetime greedy lying corrupt politicians too, they are buddies with the Monoplized Lying Main Stream Media, so that doesn't help either.

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Kiki Xi-ng
on November 07, 2019 at 05:03:44 am

Well i am glad my comment not only amused you but drew attention to valid arguments. My work here is done.. I can only apologise for my natural style of rambling on and on, with a wanten disregard for proper use of grammer. It's not that i am illiterate, it is moreso the case that i just naturally seem to be a ranting, rambling menace of a commenter. But i always make sense, or something near enough to it atleast that only mild interpretation is would ever be required. As a student of history with a great passion for it, i dismay at the abuse of my beloved history to justify peoples modern political ideals in such fashion as displayed frequently by modern post-modernists. Historic acts need to be taken in their proper context. The wrongs of the past cannot be associated with completely unrelated peoples of the present, it is an absurdity. I would also add; sometimes i just wish people would get over things. In Wales some of my fellow welsh still have yet to get over the fact that a man they claim as a welshy, richard tudor became king of England, then his son unified england and wales. In wales and scotland they still celebrate battles from a thousand years ago in some sort of retarded anti-english bout of delusional nostalgia.. you know celebrate the days when we were still warring them not in union with them. Apparently living in peace with them is intolerable because hundreds of years ago someone did something.. foolish people will salt mine for centuries about stuff so don't expect people to get over this nonsense of "cultural appropriation" anytime soon as its essentially just an excuse to salt mine about grievances they ought not to get over emotional about, were not affected by, and cannot justly assign blame for. Seems to me any rational person would know this. Of course we are not always dealing with rational people.

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 05:11:28 am

What you effectively say here is; in non white majority nations (2nd and 3rd world - you mean less economically developed nations) even the non white masses treat non white people with more contempt. Effectively saying black people are just as racist and discriminatory against non whites as those terribly discriminatory systems in America? So what you are saying is even black people are racist against black people?.. are you sure you thought your comment through? Or do you seriously believe everyone, everywhere in the world treats white people better?

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 05:23:19 am

So we can not adopt the military dress of any peoples for any reason because we are not their soldiers? Well so much for the 'land of the free'... more than happy to share their culture? Evidently not mate or this issue of appropriation would not exist. If anything its the opposite. They do not want to share, the want to control everyones use and perceptions of that culture to suit their own ends. That is not sharing, that is pseudo propagandising via a cultural medium. You cannot control others perceptions of cultures, or claim cultural hegemony over certain elements in a 'free, multicultural society'. If you wish to continually create divide and other yourselves, expect to be treated as "others".

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 05:25:43 am

Dont be so absurd. In a free multicultural society no one ought to control any elements of any culture or dictate to others what elements of which cultures they are entitled to engage with. Your comment wreaks of cultural marxism/postmodernist nonsense.

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 05:31:03 am

I think your final sentence summarised the situation nicely. This certainly is not entirely sane. On the whole your comment is very well put.

Id also add, ought there be any right to cultural dictatorship in a free multicultural society? Can one actually conform to principles of freedom and multiculturalism if we are to say that only x can access or.associate with elements of x culture or y can only interact with elements of x culture in ways outlined by x. Does this not hark back to the days of old when divisions were more rife, and groups "othered" those not of their group. Seems like a backward step in societal development to me.

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 06:45:24 am

You think every race has suffered equally? That is truly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. There is no way you can compare and suffering that white people have endured to the suffering black people have.... And still are enduring. White people went to Africa.... Bought black HUMANS and forced them into chains and forced them into the bottom of a ship where they were chained together and forcibly brought to America. Do you know what happened on those ships? I don't know all of it, but I know some and it's horrifying. The black women were raped every day at the white mans whim. The black men and women were chained in the bottom of those ships covered in their own feces and fed scraps just to keep them alive long enough to get them to America where the real suffering would start..... And continue for centuries..... And it's still going on. It's just taken on a different way to mistreat black people. Oh they threw pregnant black women off the ships because they couldn't work hard enough. They threw black men off the ship if they were sick or injured. Threw them in the ocean to drown like garbage. And the white people are the ones who caused the injuries and sickness. So finally after being tortured on one of those ships for God knows how long they were pulled off the ship in chains. They were dropped at different auctions. Auctions where white men got to pick and choose which black HUMANS they wanted to purchase. Then they were taken by force to some plantation where the were beaten, forced to work, barely fed, raped, and stripped of their entire way of life. Has anyone in America ever taken away a white persons name, religion, and freedom? No they haven't. Oh and the black women that weren't even considered human were sure human enough to be repeatedly and brutally raped. White men still own the majority of all rapes committed. Lol. And after over 200 years finally comes the Emancipation Proclamation. Lincoln didn't believe in slavery.... I'll give him that. He did not, however, write the proclamation just to free slaves. He was at war. He wanted the slaves to rebell so it would be easier for the Union Army to win. He didn't give a crap about black people. And after this black people were still not free. They couldn't vote even after laws were passed that they could vote. They were lynched, murdered, beaten, raped, and constantly bullied into submission.... Or murdered. This was all after slavery. Have you seen the live footage of the Civil Rights Movement and how black ppl were treated by cops are and other white ppl.... Mostly white men? Are you that oblivious to what black people actually went thru in this country that they did not ask to come to? And don't throw the racist argument out about how they can leave if they don't like it here. This became their home after all the systematic torture. And if you don't like it here you can leave too if that the case. And skipping all kinds of horrific events to today black people are being gunned down in the streets every single day by cops. And these cops rarely lose their jobs. They certainly don't go to jail for murder which is exactly what their doing. And the so called "good" Cops stand there and say nothing and let it happen so they are just as guilty. No people in this country have not suffered equally. Did you skip all your history classes or do you just stick your head in the sand?
By the way I'm white and Italian. I do wear my hair in braids sometimes and I don't feel bad about that at all. It is true, however, that many black people are discriminated against in the workplace and at school for wearing braids and dreads which are part of their culture. I'm not letting anyone tell me how I can wear my hair or what I can wear because I don't do anything to be offensive that's for sure. I will stand up for black people who are discriminated against. I do know the history. And yes white privilege still exists. Oh and I won't even get into how white men STOLE this land from native Americans and then systematically slaughtered them to almost extinction. And they are still treated horribly. NATIVE Americans were the last group to get the right to vote. Women, all women, we're next to last. I'd say white men have had it better than anyone here and white ppl have never suffered like black people have in this country. Never.

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J Gaines
on November 07, 2019 at 07:21:18 am

Wow there are simply so many absurdities in your comment iv not even the time to go through them right now. Rest assured i will do in due course.

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 09:30:23 am
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Boko
on November 07, 2019 at 13:11:13 pm

Dear Brain from Spain:
Well, it appear to me that by inventing pseudo-problems, ambitious demagogues may keep us from paying attention to what they are doing. "The sky is falling in" is usually enough of a message if the line is delivered with sufficient emphasis. There is a quotation from H.L. Mencken on the art of governing being something about keeping the populace alarmed by menacing them with an endless series of hobgoblins, or words to that effect.

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Standing Fast
on November 07, 2019 at 13:46:31 pm

You may have interspersed some facts between your ranting interpretations of history and your willfully ignorant narrative peddling that at times ignores context, at times generalises about "whites" and "blacks" in a manner that is simply misleading and negates certain facts, making it somewhat erroneous. As i said, when i have a bit more time to fully scrutinise is point by point i shall, then you shall understand what i meant in my first comment about the absurdities contained within your comments and assertions. Try not to get too triggered before then, or you will really lose your shit when i actually respond..

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 14:20:08 pm

Mark:
One of the God-given rights inherent in Liberty is Freedom of Association. Implied in this right is a responsibility for the consequences of our choices.

One of your comments is about appropriating the military dress of other cultures. I suppose it depends upon the context. Scottish societies around the world encourage people all over the world who have no Scottish ancestors are encouraged to dress up like warring Scots from every era of their history, compete in the ancient games, eat the ancient ceremonial food called "Haggis", recite poems and sing songs from Robert Burns on January 25, learn the Scots language, dance Scottish country dances and the Highland Fling and play the bagpipes.

The Scots do not take offense if other folks wear Scottish costumes--the more authentic the better. They like seeing people appropriating their culture--they believe it to be a good one. Interestingly, people of other races & cultures are part of their culture & vice versa, which can be seen at the annual Edinboro Military Tattoo.

Same with the Irish. On St. Patrick's Day Irish-Americans like to see us wearing green, drinking green beer, eating Corned Beef & Cabbage and singing "Danny Boy". They like to say that on St. Patrick's Day "everybody is a little bit Irish". They take no offense if you wear a Leprechaun costume. They don't mind if your ancestors put signs in their store windows saying "No Irish need apply". Or if your ancestors were their ancestors' bitter enemies. They like seeing us appropriate their culture. They actually might take offense if you don't.

In American history, some white folks dressed like Indians (usually frontiersmen) and some Indians dressed like white folks. In the American Revolution, some military regiments on both sides wore uniforms consistent with their own ethnicity. There were people from all over the world who came to America even in the early years, and this means newcomers were adopting the Anglo-American ways of the British Colonies in North America. As they were assimilating they were also contributing something of their own to our culture that made us that much better and stronger. The fact that most had difficulties during the period of assimilation does not mean they are not any less American than those with British ancestors. In our time, as re-enacting and living history becomes more popular, everybody seems to be allowed to play the role of any historical person or member of any group. The idea is to learn as much about them as possible, which means studying the people and history and understanding as much as possible about their life and times. It means people whose ancestors came from far nd wide appropriate the 17th, 18th nd 19th century culture of Anglo-Americans. Because of this we are finding out all kinds of things about who we were.

One of my favorite movie, although it is a bit dated now, is "Crocodile Dundee". The movie is a comedy about an Australian from the Outback named Mick Dundee who comes to New York. I won't say anymore, but one of the themes that runs through the movie is how the Crocodile Man surprises everyone by attempting to appropriate American manners & customs, and in so doing teaches them Australia's. So, he learns how to say "Have a good day" and he teaches others how to say "G'day, mate." In the movie it was considered a compliment for them to be doing this. The movie makes us laugh at ourselves, and still feel good, like everything is going to turn out okay for us in real life.

I am tired of the perpetually-offended throwing cold water on everybody, just as we are on the threshold of a new era where treating everyone else with equal respect is catching on. But, if you are nursing your grievances, or the grievances of your ancestors, you can't see this happening. It doesn't happen overnight, but it is still happening. We should be thanking God for our blessings instead of complaining that the world is not perfect. It never will be, but that shouldn't stop us from doing good to our neighbor.

This is what came to mind from your comments!

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Standing Fast
on November 07, 2019 at 14:22:21 pm

Trust me you fool I could care less about your comments. My black husband and friends read my post and also agree that it's all fact. You just wish it wasn't. I wish it wasn't. But it is all fact. Every word I said is a fact. And I was never talking about everyone. I was talking about the people who committed all these atrocities and the unlucky minorities who had to endure it. And yes still have to endure racism to this day. I have to wonder if my husband will be shot by police simply because he's driving while black. Every black person understands this and most white people do too. Don't spend to much time on you speech because I can clearly see you are a racist and your ignorant and you don't know your facts. Go tell some black people and native Americans what you plan to tell me. You'll be lucky if someone does whip your ass. lol..... Your a complete idiot if you think you can dispute a word I said. They are quite literally facts. I can back everything I said. And most people.... Even half wittted people.... Know all of what I said to be true. Go ahead and take up for the slave owners and traders if you'd like. Go ahead and take up for the white settlers who stole this land from the natives and then slaughtered most of them. Take up for Lincoln. Say whatever you want. Your a racist and your obviously ignorant. Peace be with you. You'll need it if you go tell black people that white people have suffered just as much. White ppl haven't suffered. Lol. Maybe in their own personal situations but they were never systematically enslaved, murdered, abused, raped, stripped of their culture or any of that. Not I'm America. Maybe way back in some European country where they had indentured servants. Still not equivalent to the horrors of slavery or the almost genocide of natives. You probably think the Holocene didn't happen too. Your one of those. Go hang with your skin head friends. Even they would know everything I said is true. They just don't care because their racist garbage. You need to go back to school and get a life. I'm finished with this. Bye racist.

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J Gaines
on November 07, 2019 at 14:28:22 pm

Holocaust I meant of course. You should learn how to spell also. Bye person who can't accept historical facts. Bye racist.

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J Gaines
on November 07, 2019 at 15:10:39 pm

Your talking about Scottish people. They are not offended because they were never stripped of their entire culture, taken forcibly from their native land, and oppressed. And I am talking about black people. They didn't ask to be brought over here... Tortured.... Raped.. .. Sold as property..... And completely stripped of their culture. They were not allowed to keep their names, religions, languages, or even their hair. They were forced to assimilate. They were forced to be as white as possible but had none of the white privileges. That is totally different. And I'm white and Italian. I get my hair braided and I will continue to do so. But I understand why black people get upset when they are still to this day discriminated against for wearing hairstyles that are part of their culture. Their offended because they get told not to wear their hair that way by their boss or school teacher and then a white person gets praised got being different. I love braids. I love the hairstyle. I also respect the black culture and the struggle and I would always take up for any black person being denigrated for their cultural hair style. You can still be a black professional and have braids. You can't compare Scottish culture to black culture when it comes to the forced assimilation and stripping of everyone they knew when they were forced to come be tortured hear.

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J Gaines
on November 07, 2019 at 16:29:56 pm

Actually, Scots have suffered a great deal of discrimination and persecution at the hands of the English, Vikings, and African slave-traders. Among other things, the English banned the kilt and forced many Scots off the land and relocated them to northern Ireland where they were used to colonize Ireland for the English. Their descendants are called "Scots-Irish". Now, they may or may not have suffered as badly as blacks, but what I'm saying is that blacks are not the only victims of persecution on account of race. In times past the English perceived Scots, Irish, Welsh and Scots-Irish to be distinct and inferior racial groups. Interestingly, these groups did have members who were not white.

You say you are white and Italian and wear your hair in corn-rows or something? You might be interested to know that Persians, Greeks and Romans were wearing their hair in corn-rows long before the style was adopted by Africans. And Celts were famous for their wild hairdos, including what we would call "dreadlocks", before the style was brought to the Caribbean.

Tourism is all about cultural appropriation. It is thought by many that trade encourages peace among nations and cultural appropriation brings goodwill goodwill.

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Standing Fast
on November 07, 2019 at 17:03:28 pm

Point taken. I know other groups have been persecuted. It's not as bad as slavery or the aftermath of slavery though. It just not. Black people are still being gunned down in America streets today... Every day.... For no reason. And the cops never get punished. Yes I know that black people don't have the market cornered on braids and other different hair styles. It is part of their culture from the beginning of time though. They still get discriminated against when they wear braids and I get praised. That's not right. So I agree with you mostly. I know all of that. I was focusing on black people and native Americans in America. I know history very well. I know other groups have been mistreated all throughout history. I just can't find anything worse than slavery. And I pray I never do. I can't find worse than what was done to the native Americans and I hope I don't. I can't find worse than the Holocaust and I hope I don't. I wear my hair in braids and cornrows and lots of other styles that I'm sure came from some other group and I will respectively continue to do so. I respect people's cultures and I understand what their upset about with the cultural appropriation. I won't be told how to wear my own hair in any case. And I would be happy and honored to help fight any company that would discriminate against black people for wearing their own hairstyles that did come from their culture..... As well as others that you mentioned. Black people even got oppressed by white people in Africa. So I know what your saying. It's just not to the extreme that black people have suffered..... And still suffer. Most people don't have to be afraid to drive and get pulled over by cops. Black people do. Because they are getting murdered every single day by these racist cops. And the ones who stand by and do nothing are no better. My husband is black. I have to worry what will happen to him if he gets pulled over. I know he would be polite and he would cooperate. The problem is these cops who are either racist or scared to death of black people don't care. They shoot first and don't care later and they never go to jail. Most groups that have experienced persecution got a break at some point. The racism against black ppl just keeps taking on different forms. It never stops. Nobody should be treated that way. I don't understand how the racists keep maintaining control whomever they are against even though the people who are not racist far outnumber them. I believe it's because we don't all stand up and fight against it. Racism against anyone is wrong. People don't want to fight because their scared. And that makes sense in some way but being scared only gives the racists more power. I was arrested twice for simply speaking up when someone was being discriminated against based on their race. And I see it all the time. If we can't stop cops from using black people for target practice then we can't do anything. And that is a lot more important than who of what color wears a hair style or a headdress or a kimono.

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J Gaines
on November 07, 2019 at 19:14:15 pm

See i told you not to get too triggered now didn't i, imagine what you'll be like when i actually critique your comments. Jesus.

'Listen you fool', why don't you just simmer down a bit and actually wait to see what counter arguments or points i make in response before deciding what my intellectual capacity is, or is that beyond your intellectual capacity? I didn't bother reading your whole response then but i did see a few brief insults and something and getting my ass whipped or kicked or some rubbish. Literally no one cares if your husband agrees with you or what colour he is, that just means he probably chats shit as well and if his colour is irrelevant.. you realise both black and white people can chat shit, misrepresent facts, offer lurid historical interpretations etc. Your making yourself look a right mug to be honest. Stupidity does as you are doing now, so just chill out, wait till the end of the weekend as iv 2 essays and a presentation to deal with for now, and i will give you a full response, which then you can read and if you still think everything you say is gospel and im.an idiot.talking bollocks then fair enough, well just have to agree to disagree. You, your husband and friends dont have a monopoly on truth or intelligence.. judging by your comments you certainly dont even possess the latter. But ill give you the benefit of the doubt because evidently your getting irrationally irate right now, and say you probably do possess intelligence enough to actually make valid points, and there probably is some in your ranting comments. But also as ill.demonstrate you either didnt represent your arguments properly, or you werent half talking some.bollocks at times. Now wind your neck in before you do yourself a mischief for gods sake.

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 19:42:27 pm

Thankyou for that delightful response. As someone with an irish grandfather who came to wales in the 50s and literally coudlnt go in some places because he was irish i can attest to your point about many irish not being so salty about a bygone era. And that there is in fact 'a little irish' in me also. I completely sympathise with your running out of patience with those so entrenched in past hatred that they cannot seem to embrace the love in the present. Granted some people.are tossers still, but the western world at least, on the whole is radically different and a world leader in acceptance of all peoples of all persuasions from all backgrounds and cultures (within reason of course). Those who cannot see the beauty of the societies we are living in now but ignorantly tear them apart at the seams with this constant us v them mindset; that is the root cause of this obviously hate filled narrative peddling, who ironically seem to think people of no ill intent are the hateful ones destroying the pluralist societies we should value greatly - are the antithesis of modern tolerant individuals. How ironic then it is that they seem to manifest in their own actions and words the divisive, us v them, put everyone in their respective box and make sure they stay there mindsets that were the root causes of the past wrongdoings; that they apparently cant help but still have visceral emotional reactions too. Do they not see the world we live in? How it has improved no end, and continues to do so. Why do they live in a past (not even theres half the time) and not recognise the present? Its absurd to me. It wears my patience thin. Wed be called racists for not.going along with this nonsense. When we truly preach love and tolerance, and they seek to divide and other those of different origins. Jesus wept, the worlds gone stupid.

On a lighter note, i know the crocodile dundee films, and thoroughly enjoyed them when younger.. "thats not a knife.. this is a knife" always used to crack me up.

Honestly, i greatly appreciate your response. You make great point concerning the irish as well, who those architects of new postmodern division refer to as "the white negroes" due to what they percieve as the long standing colonialist and imperialist oppression/persecution committed by those same british colonial master types, effectively saying they are like us because they suffered as we did(referencing slavery etc). It greatly demonstrates how absurd these positions are when those who were being targeted before and after slavery and colonialism by the colonialist imperialist and 'postcolonial oppressors", especially when those holding those positions actively associate there plight with theirs. They really shoot themselves in the feet by doing so. The irish dont bear that grudge, carry that multigenerational anger etc. They appreciate what we have now is fundamentally different and better, that those people now are not those who existed then. Of course some might but there will always be fools. Nothing is perfect, to expect as much is a folly. But evidently things vastly improved all round. And would continue to do so if these damned fools would just realise they do more harm then good whether well meaning or not.

Thanks again for your considered response. Its always good to have someone put forth such a well meaning and valid statement.

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 19:59:18 pm

By what measure can we make qualitative or quantitative assesment as to the levels of suffering and make comparative evaluations of whose ancestors suffered more? If anything slavic peoples ancestors had it worst if we are playing that nonsensical game. The term slave comes from slavic. They were being taken into slavery by everyone since time in memorial. By africans, arabs, norse etc. From.before transatlantic slavery right through most of its existence. And then got massacred again by nazis. Not once do you hear them come with such bullshit as to say there ancestors suffering is of greater value than anyone elses. Its just not how you should go about things. Regarding prejudices still happening, ie police shooting etc, you are equal before law constitutionally, so use the law to remind them. Also, stop the stupidity of this bullshit gang culture/ self degrading advesarialist mentality etc you know what i refer too, i tell my own fellow peasants in britian (iv known unwarranted police harrasment personally), if you conduct yourself like a cunt youll be treated like a cunt. You owe it to yourself to conduct yourself as is fitting for a proper person. I used to be a constant weed smoking, anti establishment 'fuck the pigs' counter culture socialisticly inclined fools of the same ilk. Now i conduct myself in a manner that commands respect, as i actually approach the world with decency and respect and more importantly respect myself more. And my outlook and then subsequently peoples.view and actions towards me, changed dramatically over time. Many people are trapped in what i call "peasant mentality" and it not only limits you in life, it massively impacts your world.view and your actions which in turn then leads to the manifestation of actions or views which have as much respect for you as you have for yourself. Why let yourself be corralled into a lesser state of mind by this socialist driven narrative that makes you consider yourself a second class citizen, which means you manifest as such in reality. People need to buck their ideas up, get off their dumbasses, get out there and manifest into reality that which they claim, that they arent a lesser person than anyone. Youll notice before long how different the world looks and how different you look in it.

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 20:15:57 pm

Just briefly, evidently youve never heard of the barbary slave trade, which pre dates the transatlantic slave trade.. in which many 'whites' were kidnapped, raped etc by 'blacks' for a longer period of time than transatlantic slavery existed. So to say "whites have never suffered" or havent suffered anything of that sort is just fuckin ridiculous. Also do away with the generalisations. Most black people,most africans were never enslaved by white people. Arabs likely enslaved just as many as well. Blacks enslaved blacks just as often as well, who do.you think was selling africans for finished goods from.britian? Yes thats right black africans. Evidently your highly generalised version of history is absurd, not just because of generalisations but because your so ignorant of.historic facts you dont know actually realise that some white people were enslaved by black.people.in just as barbaric a fashion, or that most black people.to have ever lived didnt suffer any of that. Or that in fact the term slave exists because slavic white people.were enlsaved so.frequently.for so long by everyone of every colour that there names became the word slave; try tell them.there ancestors never suffered such horros youll be laughed out of eastern europe and the caucus region for such foolish words.

As for this tripe about me being racist and not accepting historical facts, evidently whoever has been teaching you history is guilty of such things. I didnt get into uni to study history because i cant accept historic facts. Honestly, is your husband filling you up with this hyper biased racist narrative? Does he not know actual history? Whatever victim.mentality fool youve been listening to has been filling your head with bullshit. Christ, yes "all black people and only black.people have suffered.. and anyone who says otherwise is racist" is this what they tell you? Go and study some.actual fuckin history. Everyones ancestors suffered. One final remark for now, i dont need to worry about grammar because what i say is truthful and makes sense, and if i did, people like yourself would have to actually respond to arguments not just comment on grammatical.errors, so be glad i dont. Or youd be left with fuck all to say in the end.

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Mark
on November 07, 2019 at 22:37:25 pm

My God you are truly a damn fool. You have absolutely no clue what your talking about. You just use big words that you probably think no one can understand but I understand them all.... Unfortunately. You do this because you really don't have anything to say. Your trying to hide your ignorance with some big words, run on sentences, and grammatical errors. By the way that last comment was not for you because I don't agree with any of your nonsense. That was a reply to someone who agreed with me about slavery. They just wanted to point out some other things that happened in other countries. I'm talking about this country though. It really doesn't matter because your too thick to get it. You really think every black man that these cops MURDER are assholes to them? That's bullshit. There are videos to prove they have gunned down black people who were completely cooroperating. All kinds of videos. Let me help you with 2 of many examples because you very obviously don't get it. Phillado Castillo gunned down while in his car while being polite and cooroperating while his fiance and her baby watched and recorded it and then they were arrested too. The poor child was telling her mother that she would protect her. The fiance was in disbelief saying did you just kill him..... He was doing what you told him to do. Shot 5 times without pause. Died right there. The cop in the background saying oh shit oh shit. And then ordering the woman and child not to move after he murdered her fiance for absolutely no reason. Another example Eric Garner go was strangled to death by a cop while begging the cop to stop and screaming that he couldn't breath. Both of these cops were on video. Both black men they murdered were cooroperating. Both cops got away with it. Your a damn idiot. Another cop just recently went to check on a black woman at her house because her neighbor called and was worried about her. Again all on video. The cop walked around her house and then walked into her house. He saw her. He shot her. She was standing in her own damn home and didn't do or say anything. Your head really is stuck in a bubble of your own making. And those are just 3 examples because this happens nearly every day now. And I can't believe you said this crap but you actually made it sound like it's ok if a cop murders someone because they are being a jerk. The police don't have any right to take someone's life just because their being an ass. The dumbass cops are supposed to be trained to handle such matters. They only have a right to shoot to kill in ACTUAL REAL self defense or the self defense of a third party. They are murdering people who have their hands up in the air. You are a disgrace. Your a disgusting fool. And you really said that the slaves ancestors suffered more. The slaves ancestors were still living in Africa with their own traditions. The had their own tribes and ways. They were not owned by white men from some other land. Yes the tribes fought each other. So what? Every land has had wars between it's own people. But they were free. The fact that you don't understsnd how horrific pre slavery on those ships, slavery, the aftermath of slavery, the civil right movement, and the war that the police have waged on black people today is damn pathetic. I hope you live in England. I really do. Then I'd feel sorry for them though. You don't know the history or present situations of black people in American so you should never talk about it again. Go take some history classes. Look up those videos. Watch the news.... Try local news and CNN. Take some English classes while your at it because you keep incorrectly spelling some of your big words. You apparently don't know when to end a sentence either. The run on sentences don't make you sound smarter either. You have problems and I feel sorry for people who have to deal with you in real life. I was right. Your a complete racist and your damn ignorant. My God I thought you might have one correct point but you had nothing. Everything you said is either your opinion or you made it up or you just don't know what your talking about. Fool.

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J Gaines
on November 07, 2019 at 22:48:02 pm

And I have never considered myself a 2nd class citizen. The black people I know don't consider themselves 2nd class citizens. You don't command any respect with that racist nonsense your spewing. I would hope you were just ignorant and don't know. I think you do know the history and about the things going on now though. You know and you choose your bubble instead of reality. I wish we could deport people like you and let some of the Mexican people out of the prisons your president has set up for them.... And their kids. I'm done. You really are a foolish foolish poor excuse for a man. BLACK LIVES MATTER. WOMEN'S RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS. NO HUMAN IS ILLEGAL. NOBODY CAN BE ILLEGAL ON STOLEN LAND.

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J Gaines
on November 07, 2019 at 23:12:09 pm

Take that English class now. Don't forget. I won't be reading anymore of your comments. I've heard enough to know that your are completely ignorant and a disgrace. I'm not irrate. Lol. I'm right. It's not a narrative. It's historical fact. I have the degrees and the plain common sense to back it up. I don't care about your little insults. My husband is a quite man. He does know the truth though. You should probably stay away from black people. Maybe you should stay away from most people because I really think your mouth full of nonsense is going to get you hurt. In any case that's your problem. I get along with basically everyone. Maybe you have psychological issues? Something is terribly wrong with you. I have received other comments on this site and nobody else disagreed with my facts. They offered some of their own but they agreed with me. That's because most people know historical fact. You just ramble on with your terrible grammer and pathetic insults trying to sound smart. That's good you studying but I doubt it will help with your completely skewed world view. It certainly hasn't helped with your grammer. If you had any valid point I would have at least read one by now. You don't though. Your just an ignorant fool. Your a troll. You make these outrageous comments just to get responses because apparently that's all you have to do. I mistakenly came across this article. I never wanted to speak back and forth with some idiotic racist. I got pulled in though because you are so ridiculous. Your a monster. Have as good a life as you can. I think I'll pray for you. You really need serious help. Whatever school you went to didn't work for you. Go back. Get a psychiatrist. Your the most unintelligent person I've ever encountered.

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J Gaines
on November 07, 2019 at 23:25:25 pm

Again your an idiot. My husband wouldn't have this conversation. He has never told me any of this. I studied it all. I have seen it all. I know all the history. And you know very well I was talking about what happened here in America. I wasn't talking about any of the things you brought up. White people have not suffered in America in comparison to black ppl. I know African people were involved in the slave trade. That doesn't make the white ppl who bought and sold slaves any less guilty. And yes your grammer is horrible. I mentioned it because you don't even make sense half the time. I'm wasting my time. Your just a fool.

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J Gaines
on November 08, 2019 at 00:01:28 am

Did you forget I'm half Italian? I'm also a Christian. I know all about the Barbary slave trade. Italian people were enslaved during that time as well. You know very well that I am talking about what happened HERE.... In AMERICA. And the white man absolutely committed all the atrocities against natives, lationos, and black people here in America. White people have never suffered like that in America. The white women, perhaps, suffered. You don't have a comparison for the suffering of black people.... And natives and Latinos.... In this country. White people have always been in control here. It wasn't even their land and they took it over. They stole land from who we now refer to as Mexicans too. It's like I said you just ramble. I never said anything about people in other countries. I never touched on that topic. I didn't because I am an American and I live here. And I was talking about America. You know that though. You just don't have anything you can say that's actually true that casts doubt on any of the AMERICAN HISTORICAL FACTS that I mentioned. No black people don't have a monopoly on suffering. They have a monopoly on suffering in America though. The natives and Latinos have suffered greatly also. All the women have suffered. There is nothing that had happened IN AMERICA that even comes close to the atrocities of slavery. And the racism rages on because of people like you. And if I go back to something else you said..... Since you believe it's ok for cops to murder black people if they are being a jerk or uncooroperative...... Then I guess it would be fine if they strangle you to death for copping an attitude or shoot one of your loved ones for being a jerk. To my knowledge people don't get the death sentence for being jerks. And as I said before you don't know crap. Most of the black men that have been gunned down by cops were cooroperating. Some had their hands in the air. Some were already on the ground in cuffs. The cops still murdered them. I can't believe someone can be so damn ignorant. I actually don't think your stupid. Your just completely ignorant about American Black History, and what's going on with the cops still today, and about the facts regarding natives and Latinos from whom this land was stolen. I never disputed people's suffering in other countries. I was never talking about that. Seek help. And for the record my husband would ignore you unless you forced his hand. I would be the one you would have the problem with. I'm not passive. I will fight back for myself and others.

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J Gaines
on November 08, 2019 at 04:26:08 am

That is a long winded response that iv not the time to read through right now, so ill just quickly address the first point. I literally use words that everyone should understand. It would defeat the point of leaving the comment if i thought no one would understand them. You come across as a fool straight off the bat with that comment. Why would i spend time writing a comment to you in language i thought you wouldnt be able to understand? Did you actually think through what you were saying or is this just you being irate again?

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Mark
on November 08, 2019 at 04:40:32 am

Still spouting nonsense i see. I literally live with non white people, associate with a pleasant gambian man outside when im smoking outside. I get on well with everyone. Most tolerant people can handle a debate without being reduced to a hysterical slur throwing wreck like yourself. You need to get a fuckin grip love, what you spout is simply your interpretation of history, not the objective truth. I suggest you spend some time actually objectively studying history instead of considering yourself the owner of the monopoly on truth. Your bloody hysterical. Your one comment says something about my president? Im british, i dont have a president.

And i didnt say your were of that mindset necessarily, i was making an inference about those, who come from proper working class backgrounds who like myself spent their entire childhood visiting their dads in prisons who get sucked into a mentality of seeing themselves as incapable of having genuine aspirations because of bullshit like the "state/system is against people like me" mindsets. It afflicts a great many peoples black white and every other colour. If you stopped being such a pissy fool and actually took the time to understand my position and what im.actually saying youd realise how retarded much of what your saying is. As for me being a racist who should avoid people lest they hurt me, again thats just an absurdity, based on your own delusional interpretation of what im saying which, like much of what your saying, doesnt seem to be based in facts. Your getting way to ridiculous. Just ignore my fuckin comments if your incapable of having a discussion like an actual academic would be able too. You can swear and insult me all you like, i wont be that bothered by it, but it doesnt reflect well on you chatting so much crap and then getting so.hysterical when someone challenges your position. If im the most unintelligent person you have ever come.across you must roll in some highly intellectual circles.. and if thats the case im sure theyll notify you about how ridiculous your being through most of your commenting.

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Mark
on November 08, 2019 at 04:43:43 am

None of those guilty people are alive though, so how are you assigning their guilt to people who didnt commit their crimes?

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Mark
on November 08, 2019 at 05:32:27 am

I'm not. I'm assigning guilt to the dead people who started it and to the idiot racists of the present who continue it. That includes murdering cops, white supremacist groups, or anyone who is racist. I'm not accusing everyone of being racist. I'm accusing the people who prove they are and you know that too. Me saying white people in this country haven't suffered and don't suffer the way black people have and do is not assigning guilt to them. It's just an unfortunate fact.

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J Gaines
on November 08, 2019 at 08:47:58 am

This article and most discussions about it were regarding cultural appropriation though, and whether it is valid and proper to effectively tell people who arent racist nor have ill intent that they have a sort of inherited guilt due to the past actions of people against people who arent the offended parties and thus should be called racists and guilty parties whom need to basically accept a degree of guilt for doing an action that no guilt can be assigned for. Hence my asking whether guilt can be assigned to them. Tell me your actual view of the subject matter of the article regarding this. And as i said multiple times you shouldve waited for me to have the time to properly critique your initial comment and subsequent ones instead of keep jumping in firing 2 barrels at me which, myself seemingly being like you, necessitates my having to respond due to my nature of being not one to not answer back when spoken to. If i werent on a phone walking down the road considering matters of philosophy currently, unable to refer back to your comments as i write this and thus not remembering nore than half of what you said; my response would be more adequate, though as iv repeatedly said, iv not time for such things at the moment. Ill literally have to request you dont just jump straight back in with the long winded slur fest for me at the moment lest we continue going round in this circle as seemingly we are both incapable of not having to immediately respond in adversarial fashion. Right now im a fly in a fly bottle lost in contemplations of wittgenstein, the man and his philosophies whilst simultaeneously not trying to consider some historical viewpoints of each, so right now my response is probably poorer than usual but less adversarial in a way as iv not the time nor patience for such a thing right now. Im also running off 2hours sleep as well so that will be factoring in to my responses today. I have much regarding other matters to consider right now. Evidently you must be enjoying this little back and forth as well as you still keep responding to me, whom youve dubbed the most unintelligent racist fool who speaks nothing but nonsense. So clearly you actually on some level like an adversarial back and forth, or perhaps like me its that compounded by an innate need to address almost instantly and challenges made to you. Considering my response it seems im still lost in philosophy right now. Youd have to wait for me to get back into the 'adversarial historic debates about facts and subsequent interpretation' mode if you want any meaningful response to anything. And as i said right now im stuck in that philosophical fly bottle. But such is my nature i just couldnt not respond again, even knowing my response is just a waffling explanation about why my response is firstly inadequate and secondly, for the most part entirely irrelevant to anythinh thats been said. Though on that latter point the fact im on my phone just going off a very tired memory of a breif element of a comment that i can barely consider due to distraction, will make this comment almost pointless. If youve even read this far, you may aswell have ignored everything iv said after the first point, and that point is made more out of curiousity than any attempt to address anything youve said. Really i should apologise for this being such a waste of time to anyone who reads this comment, my heads not in the history game right now, im playing an entirely different game currently.

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Mark
on November 08, 2019 at 08:55:21 am

Well my insulting you was a response to your insulting me, and you went in relative to what im saying. Your proper attacking my character, i initially said some absurdities were in your comments, as can be found in many comments of many people even my own, and you just gave me two barrels to the face effectively. To which i reacted, to which you reacted, to which i reacted and so on and so forth. I can hardly have outdone you when i said id happily give you the benefit of the doubt assume you are intelligent and just either misrepresented your arguments or were simpy infering absolute fact from what would rightly be called interpretation by historians. You called me racist and the most unintelligent person youd ever known, told me to lock myself away or people would probably hurt me etc. Just because i challenged your position. If you consider what i said going above and beyond what you said evidently you hold us to 2 very different standards,which you ought not too in my opinion. Anyway thats enough of this for now, i have work to do, philosophical matters to consider,history essays to write.. im a very distracted man right now.

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Mark
on November 08, 2019 at 16:39:36 pm

If your writing history essays I hope their not about any kind of black History in America. I didn't interpret anything. They are facts that can be proven. You are in your little bubble and your going to stay there no matter what anyone says or even if you go prove it to yourself. You would somehow argue yourself out of believing the truth. I think your always distracted. Maybe that's the problem. I don't hold myself to a different standard. I did insult you. I was responding to you. And I still think things you said sound racist. And facts you refuse to acknowledge make you sound racist. In any case every other word you said was and insult. Other stuff you said wasn't even in response to what I was actually speaking about. It just is insane to me that you think what I said about black people in America in the past and present isn't true. Everyone knows it to be true. You can find the same facts in 50 books. You can read what actual slaves wrote. You can see the cops on video shooting lots of different black men. I guess your going to keep denying what you can hear, read, and see with your own ears, brain, and eyes. You won't find a black person who disagrees with what I said. Not one. Unless they were born somewhere else. And even still they get discriminated against here. They just didn't have the misfortune to go thru slavery and everything after it. Another fact you can find yourself is that the American Justice System systematically puts black men in jail for years longer than a white man who committed the same crime. Fact. I'm sure you won't agree but you can look up the stats. You can look up all those videos of cops murdering black people. You can look up basically everything I said. Look at different sites and different books... Youll find the same facts unless someone is lying. Go to your local court and look it up.

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J Gaines
on November 08, 2019 at 17:02:19 pm

Yeah your right that comment was unnecessary. It sounds like your trying really hard to prove that your smart. Why does anyone need to know what philosopher your thinking about? They don't. You need to say it for some reason though. I'll answer the one thing you said that has anything to do with anything I or you have talked about though.
No I do not believe that people should not wear braids because they are white. I wear braids. I do know the history though. And I would support any black person who was discriminated against by their work or school for wearing their hair in braids or dreads or natural because those hairstyles are part of African culture. And before you say it I know cornrows were worn by Greeks, Romans and other people throughout history. The hairstyles are still part of African culture though. I'll wear what I want and I'll fix my hair how I want. I dont care if someone gets offended because I have braids and I'm white or if I wore a kimono. Thats a stupid thing to get mad about unless I was being disrespectful or mocking someone's culture. I certainly don't do that. So I understand what some people mean when they talk about cultural appropriation. I even understand why they might be offended. I'm not going to quit enjoying things I like that don't hurt anyone just to please somebody. There are much more important things to be mad and offended about. Like the police murdering black people like its a damn game.

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J Gaines
on November 08, 2019 at 17:17:12 pm

I study welsh history, religion and philosophy so im always distracted, you are right about that atleast. I was trying to encourage you to stop sending me long winded responses because i actually have other things to do, yet you just keep responding.. you clearly get some sort of enjoyment out of it. Im not insecure about my intelligence so i dont need to prove anything to anyone regarding that. You also seem to be inhabiting a bubble of your own there, and seem to constantly mention my intelligence which make it seem as if you are just projecting, if anything it seems its you trying to prove something here, that your smarter and everything you say is unquestionable gospel. For the love of god woman stop replying, you just say the same things over and over and over. Always mentioning my intelligence constantly. You must really be insecure about your own. Or you just have some mad ego and you just get kicks out of trying to show me your smarter than me or something. If you are that intelligent youd have surely noticed the multiple times i have said just ignore me and stop replying, why not just wait until ic more time to actually get on a computer and read through the several essays youve written me here, so i can respond to arguments your making, so this can become an actual debate as opposed to this nonstop back and forth slanging match you keep turning it into. You seem so obessessed with my intelligence, and telling me that your clearly superior. You need to reign that ego in a bit. Now please just dont bother replying, your not saying anything new anyway.

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Mark
on November 09, 2019 at 08:08:20 am

So you believe yoga, Tai chi,. Martial arts are wrong for Americans to do. Because all forms of martial arts are from another culture?

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Bellini
on November 09, 2019 at 17:55:56 pm

I have found this discussion very insightful, from the hilarious and inappropriate, to the meaningful and insightful, even the hateful and malicious. Being a fifty-old year woman of color, with an ancestry of mainly, African, Native American, Mexican, and Irish, I find it amazing that this discussion came to such a frothy mess. At one point I had to laugh as I read for more time that should have been allowed, that is was how one wears their hair is what this is really about. I found it fascinating that so many people couldn't objectively discuss this in an open manner and both sides of the discussion accept what is wrong or right about the subject manner. That so much information, though very studiously compiled, had been used to either play down one side of the discussion or to elevate the other.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. In most cases, in these and times people hold on to that opinion unless they are hit in the head "with the proverbial two by four". This discussion was whether there is really such an entity as "Cultural Appropriation". As a college student, at my advanced age, I actually came to see if this article would be useful for my research paper, funny enough about the main subject of this discussion. I will say that according to many scholars' who are so above my current pay wage have written a papers on this particular subject, I would have to agree with my learned superiors and say that it is a real entity. Whether there is a belief in it or not. Much like earlier Civilisations that were positive that the world was square, believing doesn't make it true, but there is more evidence that it is a true state than not. You, of course, have the freedom to believe otherwise.

Now, being of a combination of heritages, that in this country, in that past few decades, have had to deal with that the appropriation issue more than most. I would like to site a few personal instances from my own life.

1. I had my braids cut off at school in the 5th grade, the little girl of European descent who wore braids much like that those of Cindy Brady, of the Brady Bunch, did not. My parents couldn't take anyone to court for it, there was no legal recourse for it, back then. Did I want to scream and rail at the injustice? no. I was in the fifth grade. I was taught that day that I should never wear braids. When I shared my fancy shawl outfit I used for Powwows to honor my elders as we do every year, for a report on I had to do on Native Americans, just before the Thanksgiving holiday in Junior High School, I got an F, for bring in inappropriate material. On the other hand, a fellow student who was my best friend as his grandfather and mine both came from Cork County, brought his Irish dressage to explain about his culture. He got a B. that was my youth, these were not the worst of the double standard I've had to live with, just the ones that hurt the most during that time.

2. As a teen, my best friend was a young girl who a Jehovah's Witness. I was spat on, threaten, called nearly every derogatory name for my culture that existed. This was the supposedly enlightened eighties, as everyone was listening to prince and culture club, I was jumped for listening to Duran Duran.

So I figured I was jumped because I wasn't allowed to listen to music that was made by a white artist, I wasn't allowed to have a white friend, and I was not allowed to be any more than what society had mapped out for me to be. I guess I should mention I have fairly intelligent mind, and that this didn't sit very well with me. So I as a teacher what was wrong with me listening to Duran Duran, she blinked and stated this..."You not white, you can't listen to music by white people in school." I thought about that for a moment, and being the person that I am, I answered back "You mean like the teens of the '50s couldn't listen to black music?" she didn't say anything to me to the office I was given detention for a week.

So those are great examples of racism, right? Well for the most part. I bet right now you all wondering where this leads to Cultural Appropriation.

When you take anything that of significant value, and we are not the monetary value that is a completely different creature, of cultural and personal worth from any one of a different race, culture, or background, to use for yourself in any way that diminishes their value or makes them feel shame, for being what they can't change. It is Appropriation. This is not the abstract belief of one woman of color, who you probably think at this point is a complete nutter. This after I have read through and discussed this same issue with more people than I would ever like to admit. It is the same no matter who does it, and it is just not ok.

1. The Korean Pop idol who thought it was a good idea to dress in an unrealistic Native American adornment and do what I guess she thought was a warcry during her dance break while recording live.
2. Rihanna dress in a Hijab that was extremely ornated doing a photoshoot in front of a Mosque.
3. the Senator and friend who thought was a great idea to dress up as a KKK member and blackface.
4. the many years that white actors made a lot of money from doing blackface on stage and screen.
5. Pamela Anderson wearing a tribal headdress and thong.
6. Dolce & Gabanna dressing up a model using a tribal headdress.
7. Dolce & Gabanna starting a line of Hijabs that completely takes away from the meaning and use of it for Middle eastern woman.

These things cause harm, not just to those whose heritage has been mocked, and there is no other word to be used, no matter how unintentional it may have been or will be. When people say that America is a melting Pot.."I have always thought " for whom?" For those of us who are descended from the slaves of this country, we are not part of this melting pot. We never have been. Nor can Native Americans be called a part of this pot that a lot of Americans speak of.
To discount what any race or ethnic group has been through, with objective ignorance and a blindness that is frankly scary to someone of background, you have essentially said we have taken so much from your people but its a brand new day so forget about....while we take more.
There is one thing, that I feel the need to mention. If you value your military uniform as much I valued mine, you would never degraded as I sayw in this discussion, I grandfather was a buffalo soldier , my father served in the Navy, all my uncles served in the Marines, I served in the Army as did my daughter and my son, I value greatly the Military uniform from many different countries, as I value the uniform of my Native ancestors. Yeah, that made me a bit peevish.

I will state this as plainly as I can. We are not equal. We will never be equal, not even in my lifetime and I lived over 100. Probably not even the lifetime of my grandchildren, the youngest not having even being born yet. Those like me also feel the same, so trying to speak like you understand the plight and firmly dismissing it, is beneath anyone who tries. Until you you have lived as a black or native descendent you can't speak with any form of basis of knowledge, you end up sounding incredibly ignorant, and that is not how you want to come across. I will never be seen as more than a blight on your history, on Your culture, and a spot on your rearview. I'm okay with that. But if anything that I have said thusly, has sparked even the slightest ring of truth to you, I have done I all wanted to do.

In the end, those with power and privilege will always do what they want, No matter whether it is wrong or right, it all boils down to the fact the more someone tells you shouldn't the more you are going to because you shouldn't. AND isn't human nature...it is just YOUR own nature.

I hope all that read this have a great day. I will not check back so feel free to rip this to shreds and is your want. I have a research paper to finish and I thank you all for your input into my paper, this has been a most fascinating discussion. I hope no one minds that I use some of your remarks as they pertain to my subject.

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Just.another.voice.to.hate
on November 12, 2019 at 14:35:43 pm

Nope not cultural appropeiation. Anybody whose hair that can dred has ancestry that dreded their hair
Claiming this as a black thing or a rasta thing is not true.
Curtural appropriation is aboit a dominating culture taking so.erhing thar us UNIQUE and SACRED to another culture, and using it out of context. Food is not appropriation nor is hair color ... war bonnets, the popes robes on a male stripper. The thing has to be unique and sacred, otherwise there is no appropriation.

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Bruce
on November 15, 2019 at 10:46:35 am

Cultural appropriation is more flaunting other cultures on a very surface level only and usually for some sort of personal gratification or enrichment rather than engaging with other cultures on a more deeper and meaningful level. That’s my understanding of cultural appropriation and that’s why I think people are rolling their eyes when celebrities or brands try to look cultured through very surface level means, such as turning a traditional garment into a fashion statement... and essentially using other cultures for their profit..

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Lurking kitty
on November 15, 2019 at 13:18:54 pm

Dear Law & Liberty Friends:
I'm finding this subject pretty boring.
Taking offense at what other people wear seems petty to me even if they are doing it to cause offense.
Lighten up.
Thank you.

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Standing Fast
on November 15, 2019 at 14:25:34 pm

I don’t think dressing up in a kimono after someone gave it to you makes it cultural appropriation. There is a difference between appropriation and cultural exchange. I think appropriation highlights surface level activities such as, when a person dresses up as another culture for a festival so that they can look diverse/cultured/different and upload it onto social media platforms . Another example is when celebrities ‘embrace’ other cultures by wearing garments as fashion statements without true meaning behind it (which is different than when a person wears a traditional garment to an ethnic wedding/cultural event). It’s pointing out the look at me culture, that’s the basics of my understanding, although it does go a lot more in depth than how I’ve explained it. Cultural appropriation isn’t saying that you should not be able to take part or promote another culture but to be mindful of how you go about doing it and to appreciate the culture at a deeper level and immersing yourself rather than picking and choosing. This is my understanding, I could be wrong, but I do think that lots of the time, brands and celebrities Just do it for profit and you can tell who puts in effort actually appreciating the culture and who does it for a few likes.

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Lurking kitty
on November 15, 2019 at 14:49:31 pm

If what you are talking about is an exercise of the Golden Rule--using Common Sense & Common Courtesy in the way we dress--then I have no problem with that. But, even of other people don't, we would be over-stepping our bounds to make an issue about it. The problem with enforcing a Cultural Appropriation rule is that it is very difficult to ascertain people's motives for doing things that annoy or cause harm to others.

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Standing Fast
on November 16, 2019 at 03:29:38 am

Common courtesy with the way you dress and the way you engage with other cultures. That’s what I make of it but others might say otherwise. I agree that we cannot ascertain people’s motives 100% and think that the internet can blow up and be quite harsh and without considering context.

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Lurking kitty
on November 17, 2019 at 10:48:24 am

You are absolutely right. It seems truth and reality have no place in this post-modern world. People looking for a cause in painting poc as victim groups think they are doing a social good ie social justice. They're not.

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May Loo
on November 18, 2019 at 13:56:35 pm

Appreciate your observations. Reminded me that although I am interested in my family genealogy, I have never thought of myself as a "white" person. Nor am I concerned with the race, color or ethnicity of others.

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Standing Fast
on November 30, 2019 at 12:46:54 pm

Yeah, cultures care about objects we hold sacred. Like when you see a man or woman at a rave in a traditional Souix headdress, we need to earn those feather by feather... To wear one without earning it is an insult. You brought up dancing and yoga? How about you talk about the real things that are the problem and not use this silly idea about yoga being held back... or dancing...

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Joesph
on December 10, 2019 at 10:46:32 am

I am trying to ignore the white superiority omplex that reeks from this comment but it is hard.

Very irrelevant and extremely ignorant no one has ever claimed a cure or a medical discovery for a singular group exclusively because it is a universal human right to have access to healthcare. Not to mention that many inventions and discoveries come from other places than Europe. Same goes for science and its development and for any other field that contributes to the evolution of society. The list is too exhaustive for me to add here but feel free to google it.

As for the Mercedes that you seem to love so much you wouldnt be able to drive them without the natural resources taken from Africa, as the continent contains the largest deposit of petroleum that companies exploit. Same goes for your phones, yes, the minerals needed to make them are also taken from African countries. So please educate yourself on the privileges that you indulge in and maybe you will learn one thing or two about exploitation,corruption and even humility.

And the pizza argument just shows how little understanding you have about power dynamics which is at the core of cultural appropraition. Pizzas are a result of cultural exhange which is different. It was brought by Italian immigrants themselves and in America, all Italians were considered as white (the dominant culture) in the 20th century.

Cultural appropriation refers to a dominant culture taking from minorities that are oppressed by that dominant group. Example, native americans are still suffering from a history of opression and discrimination that further marginalise them and yet the dominant culture that are responsible for those treatments take elements of their culture that they dont even understand themselves without any consideration or intention to improve their condition. It is called white entitlement and you seem to suffer from it just like the person who wrote this article.

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Notyourbusiness
on December 10, 2019 at 15:09:43 pm

This whole business of painting all white people with the same brush is the same thing as racism, bigotry and discrimination against a particular race, ethnicity or culture.

Just because I am white does not mean you know what kind of person I am by looking at me or my demographics. I've known blacks, Hispanics, native Americans, and other groups of people sociologists consider disadvantaged to have enjoyed a wide array of privileges actively denied to me. I myself have never knowingly attempted to deny anyone of any right or privilege they might enjoy. I always thought my job was to make my way as best I can, not take short cuts.

There is a story about butterflies that I was told when I was young. It was propagated by modern liberals and modern conservatives during the sixties and early seventies. The admonition goes like this:

When a butterfly is ready to emerge from its cocoon, it must struggle until it is strong enough to get out and fly off all by itself. If we intervene to help it, we deprive it of a necessary step in its development and so it will be too weak to fly. In this way, we condemn it to failure and death.

If a society intervenes to help people who are struggling to move up in the ranks of society, we deprive them of the lessons they need to learn for successful assimilation. They do not need to discard everything of their cultural and family traditions, but they do need to adopt basic traditions of whatever culture they are moving into. Unlike other cultures where newcomers may never be allowed to move up the ranks, America allows anyone who learns the ropes to move up.

The most critical of all the lessons is Manners and Etiquette (which translate into Common Courtesy and Customs), followed by morals (Justice is dispensed by the law, not by personal revenge; women and children are not chattel; no one is to be kidnapped or sold into slavery; everyone is considered equal in law and no one is above the law; leave other people's things alone; etc.); followed by competence in whatever line of work is sought; people are to be judged by their character, not their rank or race...

My advice is if you feel you have to go to college to learn something or be somebody, do not major in sociology, psychology, creative writing, art, drama, education, philosophy, etc. Study English (it is the lingua franca of the world), Foreign languages (necessary for optimal communication with the world), History, Mathematics, Astronomy, Physics, Geography, Archeology, Geology, Meteorology, Oceanography, Botany, Biology, and so forth. But, go to a college that has a classical humanities curriculum.

Otherwise your head will be full of fluff and you'll never be able to make your way out of that cocoon.

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Standing Fast
on December 26, 2019 at 17:54:14 pm

What happens when my mother was Native American and my father was Japanese? Does the appropriation label depend on who I most resemble? We are a global society, and when you have a melting pot, the ingredients will not remain separate. If you want the best outcome, you WANT something of a merging of cultures.

We cannot progress to full equality unless we recognize that no skin color/hair color/background equates to ownership of ANYTHING. In 500 years, if humans still exist, nobody will care. You might think that's sad, but I think it's natural. Japanese weren't Japanese 10,000 years ago. In fact, 10,000 years ago, everyone still had dark skin and dark eyes, and you would be hard pressed to say any one group had a "culture" which was significantly different from another group.

Culture is just something evolves through social isolation or exclusion - neither or which are particularly awesome conditions. While it may be a source of pride, it is not the here and now, and not something you can own. We have enough problems in the world, borrowing the best of various groups is not one of them. We shouldn't have to run a DNA test on someone to let them enjoy the most basic cultural identity there is...being human.

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SUZANNE MORSS
on December 27, 2019 at 16:45:14 pm

Bless you! Agree with you 100%!

And, regarding a statement made by someone awhile back about individuals not being equal. If we are talking about individual characteristics--like height, weight, physical strength, experience, wisdom, virtue, attitude, aptitude, and so forth--of course we are not equal. This is why human societies are so adaptable to circumstances.

But, if we are talking about the Self-Evident Truths, then we are talking about something else--being equal in the sight of the Creator who made us and holds us equally accountable to His Laws. From this, Man's laws are supposed to be derived to establish Equal Justice.

Each of us has an equal right to Life, Liberty, Justice, Self-Government, Conscience, Assembly, Association, Movement, Security of Persons and Property, Self-Defense, Property, and the Pursuit of Happiness (well-being, contentment, prosperity and joy).

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Standing Fast
on December 31, 2019 at 06:01:04 am

[…] The Illogic of Cultural Appropriation, by Michael […]

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Law & Liberty‘s Top 10 Essays of the Year
on January 19, 2020 at 00:41:40 am

Y'all really didn't though the so called modern world has had contributions from everyone let's not pretend that somehow white people can claim that science is their culture is asinine because science isn't a culture it's a discipline and subject culture is something shared by a group of people with a common ancestor and or background who have similar beliefs and ideas.

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DRE
on January 28, 2020 at 08:29:26 am

This is moronic. Cultural appropriation is the dominant culture utilizing some aspect of an oppressed culture for their personal use and making it seem as if it acceptable within society, while it demeans the culture.

Native headdresses are offensive to those who do not belong to the culture because they symbolize many different things and aren’t used as fashion statements.

I’m unsurprised at the lack of awareness and the amount of prejudice on this post.

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Nunya
on January 28, 2020 at 18:52:46 pm

Actually I read about a mexican restaurant in California which was selling food cooked in ways that differed from the original recipes and they forced it to close because the white American owners were culturally appropriating Mexican cuisine allegedly in an offensive and racist way. Lol people are crazy

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Nicola
on January 29, 2020 at 13:51:09 pm

Well, I'm kind of partial to my Irish ancestors who eventually married my English and Vikiing ancestors. So, why am I NOT offended when people who aren't Irish dress up like cartoon Leprechauns, drink green beer and pretend to be Irish on St. Patrick's Day?

Interestingly, one famous Irish song, "Wearing of the Green", has a chorus that goes: "The wearin' of the green/oh, the wearin' of the green/they're hanging men and women for the wearin' of the green!" It was about the English attempt to put down one off Ireland's many rebellions against English rule. So, one part of my ancestry was persecuting another part of my ancestry. Both sides were party to many misdeeds against the other and I have resolved my dilemma by deciding to learn the lessons of history rather than bear a grudge against people on both sides who were trying to do what they thought was right.

Native headdresses do not offend me:
When I was very young my parents bought me a little kids' Indian headdress. I was very interested in Indians and admired them for their virtues, wanted to be brave and noble as the chief on my favorite television show "Brave Eagle". I wore the headdress proudly, not to demean Indians but to be like them. I've had a lifelong interest in their histories and cultures.

I am tired of strangers thinking they know what I think and how I feel because my mother had red hair and freckles and my father was ruddy with dark blue eyes. I don't think I have any idea what someone's opinion is about anything just because they don't look like me. Or even if they do.

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Standing Fast
on January 31, 2020 at 08:51:28 am

Have you ever read the book, Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race by Reni Eddo-Lodge? Its worth reading. Thank you for your effort but with the level of ignorance, arrogance and nonsensical analogies don't waste your energy on a lost course.

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Grace
on February 01, 2020 at 03:34:54 am

So headdresses made of eagle feathers have a special meaning for the Sioux and a few other plains tribes. That only means that it's wrong for a Sioux or a Cheyenne who hasn't earned that right to wear one. That someone from a different culture wears a cheap imitation is really only a problem for those easily offended, especially if it isn't meant to offend, which in most cases it isn't. It certainly doesn't demean anyone's culture. It might not be taken as compliment, but it should at least be taken with grace.
By the way, it seems that the perceived offense is greatest if it's a woman that wears the headdress. But then a native American woman won't under any circumstances be allowed to wear one, and that's an example of cultural sexism.

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TMN
on February 15, 2020 at 08:56:57 am

Celtic hairstyles were actually 'plaiting', something not done in most black hairstyles - it's a form of weaving very very fine braids together into intricate patterns, and while many compare Ancient Celtic hair to dreads it simply isn't the same thing.

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Sam
on March 09, 2020 at 18:43:53 pm

Choose not to be offended.

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CB Evans
on March 11, 2020 at 03:27:12 am

Then African American women need to stop wearing high heeled shoess, makeup, getting their hair straightened and dyed blonde. Those things were developed by whites for their use. So stop it right now. The sad part about all this griping, is that it generally goes one way; whites must stop doing what they want and enjoy, while those of other races and culture get to take from us and most of us dare not say muchuch, less we are accused [email protected] racism.

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Rockerbabe
on March 12, 2020 at 05:44:44 am

Only a white American would think this way. If you had culture and class you would view the world so much differently.

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Rob
on April 29, 2020 at 20:03:39 pm

People can integrate cultures. Its when they take some parts of the culture without understanding the original context and significance. Then there the people who want to engage in someone else's culture just enough to look cool, but do they defend those people when they are treated like crap for being different? They'll go off and make ignorant statements about that same culture but want to take from parts of it... not immerse themselves in the cultural meaning, but TAKE from it.

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Elle
on June 27, 2020 at 14:07:39 pm

This sounds like something a free society with too much times on its hands would come up with. People that are idle need to create conflict and this seems like a concept that creates or looks for conflict. Fiction writers and creative persons will always study and review and use parts and pieces of others history to create something new. To spend one's time constantly worrying whether or not you should or should not do something is problematic and will eventually stagnant the whole society.

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Amadeus

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